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A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike
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i'm finishing up an article now on bike position type stuff, and what i say in it is that i can't find any real differentiation between road and gravel positions. except (and this is a big except) my drops position, which is much shallower on my gravel bike. i'm riding gravel bars, mostly by profile, and 3T, and zipp, and they all feature: very shallow drop, like 110mm; a flare on the drop, but a final jig back so that the bar end protrudes straight back; vertical hoods mount; short reach.

but i'm thinking about going right back to the same position, road and gravel, by putting a gravel bar on my road bike. now, i don't bike race anymore. but if i did, i can't find anything that makes my gravel bar illegal. except... in the UCI rulebook there's a max width of 50cm, and some of my gravel bars exceed that by a little, as in, 51cm or 52cm. that's a pretty easy fix, if you're a bar maker.

my questions are:

1. am i the only guy? i now hate my road bars. i'm certainly putting a gravel bar on my road bike. it sprints better, it descends better, it does everything better.

2. is there a rule you can find that i can't find that would disallow these in road racing?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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No longer have a true "road" bike but I ride w/ a Salsa cowchipper mostly. Have occasionally used one of my groad bikes for crits & RRs (including CO state crit championship races 2yrs back - open & m50+) without any issue but they're not overly flared and riding in the drops kind of makes it a moot point. I could see it potentially being an issue in the lower cats - getting tangled up.
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i'm finishing up an article now on bike position type stuff, and what i say in it is that i can't find any real differentiation between road and gravel positions. except (and this is a big except) my drops position, which is much shallower on my gravel bike. i'm riding gravel bars, mostly by profile, and 3T, and zipp, and they all feature: very shallow drop, like 110mm; a flare on the drop, but a final jig back so that the bar end protrudes straight back; vertical hoods mount; short reach.

but i'm thinking about going right back to the same position, road and gravel, by putting a gravel bar on my road bike. now, i don't bike race anymore. but if i did, i can't find anything that makes my gravel bar illegal. except... in the UCI rulebook there's a max width of 50cm, and some of my gravel bars exceed that by a little, as in, 51cm or 52cm. that's a pretty easy fix, if you're a bar maker.

my questions are:

1. am i the only guy? i now hate my road bars. i'm certainly putting a gravel bar on my road bike. it sprints better, it descends better, it does everything better.

2. is there a rule you can find that i can't find that would disallow these in road racing?

Sounds like if your drops position is too low on your road bike, then you just need to raise the bars, no?

The nice thing about deep(er) drops on a road bike is that it allows for a much wider range of easily achievable body positions, especially since it's OK to bend your arms ;-) Gerard do a whole series on this almost a decade ago:

https://gerard.cc/...2-points-lubberding/
https://gerard.cc/...7/27/2-points-rasch/
https://gerard.cc/...07/29/body-vs-bar-1/
https://gerard.cc/...08/02/body-vs-bar-2/
https://gerard.cc/...s-bar-height-part-3/

It's funny...I run a shallower drop bar on my gravel bike as opposed to my road bike (which has a deep drop), but the bar is significantly higher on my gravel bike (both drops and hoods position) despite the shallower drop...although having a small bit of suspension travel up front on this bike might be having an effect ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i'm finishing up an article now on bike position type stuff, and what i say in it is that i can't find any real differentiation between road and gravel positions. except (and this is a big except) my drops position, which is much shallower on my gravel bike. i'm riding gravel bars, mostly by profile, and 3T, and zipp, and they all feature: very shallow drop, like 110mm; a flare on the drop, but a final jig back so that the bar end protrudes straight back; vertical hoods mount; short reach.

but i'm thinking about going right back to the same position, road and gravel, by putting a gravel bar on my road bike. now, i don't bike race anymore. but if i did, i can't find anything that makes my gravel bar illegal. except... in the UCI rulebook there's a max width of 50cm, and some of my gravel bars exceed that by a little, as in, 51cm or 52cm. that's a pretty easy fix, if you're a bar maker.

my questions are:

1. am i the only guy? i now hate my road bars. i'm certainly putting a gravel bar on my road bike. it sprints better, it descends better, it does everything better.

2. is there a rule you can find that i can't find that would disallow these in road racing?


Sounds like if your drops position is too low on your road bike, then you just need to raise the bars, no?

The nice thing about deep(er) drops on a road bike is that it allows for a much wider range of easily achievable body positions, especially since it's OK to bend your arms ;-) Gerard do a whole series on this almost a decade ago:

https://gerard.cc/...2-points-lubberding/
https://gerard.cc/...7/27/2-points-rasch/
https://gerard.cc/...07/29/body-vs-bar-1/
https://gerard.cc/...08/02/body-vs-bar-2/
https://gerard.cc/...s-bar-height-part-3/

It's funny...I run a shallower drop bar on my gravel bike as opposed to my road bike (which has a deep drop), but the bar is significantly higher on my gravel bike (both drops and hoods position) despite the shallower drop...although having a small bit of suspension travel up front on this bike might be having an effect ;-)

i'm just getting ready to publish my "experiment", which was to find my position by feel on a Tacx NEO Bike, over the winter, and overlay that onto my road and gravel positions. i do need to come up about 10mm on my road position. but i get a LOT more utility out of my drops position with the gravel bar. it's not just the higher elevation. in fact, the primary difference isn't that (it's 110mm instead of 120mm or 125mm). it's the flare.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Well, a lot of the aero benefit on road bars is in bar width when in the gunner position with arms bent. Not necessarily using the drops. The drops is the "long game" more aero position, or with rougher pavement for a firmer grip than the hoods. I race cross a lot in the drops because of the grip advantage and some bars flare at the drops like you say. Learn to IAB it.

So I can't really see how this is applicable to road?

In the end, whatever floats your boat.
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I rode my Open in a road event on somewhat crappy roads with a set of fast road wheels and Conti GP5000 28mm tires.
At the time I had a 3T Superghia bar on it.
I hated the bar for flat sections where I needed to be in the drops- Way too wide. I felt like a sail.
In contrast, I loved the bar for gravel offroad descending.
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
Well, a lot of the aero benefit on road bars is in bar width when in the gunner position with arms bent. Not necessarily using the drops. The drops is the "long game" more aero position, or with rougher pavement for a firmer grip than the hoods. I race cross a lot in the drops because of the grip advantage and some bars flare at the drops like you say. Learn to IAB it.

So I can't really see how this is applicable to road?

In the end, whatever floats your boat.

i may never race a road bicycle again. it may be that the capacity to do so has passed. that said, here is my thesis:

the hoods position is (or should be) a low-stress position. it does not require a lot of clearance (one's knee doesn't run into one's stomach at the top of the pedal stroke), nor core strength, nor range of motion, none of that.

however, the drops position, whatever it is we do down there requires more athleticism, if you want to take maximum advantage of that position.

what i mean is, the difference in body position between you and i might be very little, or nothing, with hands on the hoods, because that position requires so little of us while granting so much. but you might require a different drops position than i in order for us each to get the most out of that position.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [bootsie_cat] [ In reply to ]
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bootsie_cat wrote:
I rode my Open in a road event on somewhat crappy roads with a set of fast road wheels and Conti GP5000 28mm tires.
At the time I had a 3T Superghia bar on it.
I hated the bar for flat sections where I needed to be in the drops- Way too wide. I felt like a sail.
In contrast, I loved the bar for gravel offroad descending.

i have spent a lot of time using that very bar. on that very bike. i love it when on the road, because i can actually, succesfully, ride that position for a long period of time. however, i have the smaller version of that bar, which is quite narrow at the hoods (40mm). the larger version of that bar isn't just a scaled up version, it's a wholly different bar. i might not have liked it in the larger size.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Mine were also 40cm.

I think I might like something with less flare. I wish that Pro made their 12 degree flare bar in carbon.
They make a carbon bar- but it is 20 degrees.

I may try the Salsa or Whisky that is 12 degree.
Last edited by: bootsie_cat: Jun 15, 20 13:56
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Same thoughts when I put on a flared gravel bar. So much more comfortable when in the drops.

As far as rules, I believe i read somewhere that cyclocross banned or restricted flared drops due to accidents, but I could be completely wrong.
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]
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AndysStrongAle wrote:
Same thoughts when I put on a flared gravel bar. So much more comfortable when in the drops.

As far as rules, I believe i read somewhere that cyclocross banned or restricted flared drops due to accidents, but I could be completely wrong.

i don't know about CX, but i couldn't find anything in either USA Cycling's rules or UCI's rules. maybe it's there. but i didn't see it. i think a bar with flare, but not quite so much, would be ideal for road. maybe it flares 3cm on each side. something like that. and still that last bend to curve the bar back in.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Timely post. I'm switching my all-road bike from mechanical to Di2. The handlebar I have on there isn't drilled for the bar end junction so I'm looking at getting a new one.

Current bar (FSA Energy Compact) has a 78mm reach, 123mm drop, and 4° flare/outward bend (so drops are 10mm wider on each side than the hoods). I rode this bar on my road bike for years hence getting it when building up the all-road bike. However, wondering if I should jump on the wide flare bandwagon.

FSA makes a nice looking gravel bar (K Wing AGX). Drops are 24.5 mm wider than the hoods on each side (if I am reading there chart correctly). 76mm reach and a 115mm drop. So less drop, but the bars are wider so maybe the overall height of my shoulders/head while in the drops would be similar?

I do wonder though if going with too little drop on a road bike would be limiting in terms of being able to achieve different positions. As a short reach and shallow drop bar means moving from the hoods to the drops doesn't get you all that lower. Even with the FSA Energy Compact I mentioned above, I don't really feel that much different (in terms of how much I am bent over) from the hoods to the drops. I guess it begs the question as to the purpose of the drops. Is it to get in a really low aerodynamic position (for solo breakaways, descending, sprinting etc) or is it to give you a different position to rest your hands and different "way to handle" the bike? Probably different for each person and each type of riding.

Matt
Last edited by: Chemist: Jun 15, 20 15:36
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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To answer question 1, I really don't like 0 degree bars (vertical drops) - even in a wide width, they make my wrists and elbows feel kinked in. However, going to a just 4 degree flare (FSA Energy Wing Pro on the road bike and Easton EA70 on the all-road) really opens up the arms, forearm clearance, and feels more in control. I think just flare probably works up to 12-16 degrees, but a 24 degree flare kinks the shifters down and in too much, so then these new style of bars you mention sounds appealing. It looks like the Zipp drops point outward whereas the Profile and 3T drops point straight back parallel to each other - is that correct?
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

i'm just getting ready to publish my "experiment", which was to find my position by feel on a Tacx NEO Bike, over the winter, and overlay that onto my road and gravel positions. i do need to come up about 10mm on my road position. but i get a LOT more utility out of my drops position with the gravel bar. it's not just the higher elevation. in fact, the primary difference isn't that (it's 110mm instead of 120mm or 125mm). it's the flare.

Well...the last time I did the BWR (on the Fuji Jari, with Salsa Cowchipper bar), the one thing I noticed on the long road sections was a tightness and fatigue in my triceps due to the flare and riding on the hoods. So much so, that I actually sourced an aluminum 3T AeroNova to put on that bike. I had a 3T Aerotundo on my road bike and really liked the shape of the bars from the hoods to the tops. Also, the AeroNova had a slight (6 deg IIRC) flare on the drops, but nothing like a Cowchipper.

I never put that bar on that bike though. I crashed the road bike and cracked the AeroTundo, and by that time 3T had stopped making either of those bars, so I put the AeroNova on the road bike instead.

That said...I DO like a flared drops position for in the dirt, since it tends to rotate the hands into a position more like a flat MTB bar, not too mention moving the hands out a bit wider.

I actually just put together a "Resto-Mod" Cannondale XS800 CX frame for gravel riding, and on that I mounted a Ritchey Comp Ergomax bar on that one and I'm really enjoying the combination of flare (12deg), sweep(5deg), drop (128mm), and the "egg-shaped" flattened tops. I've got the drops position set a bit higher than on the Fuji and due to the brakes/levers I chose to run, the "hoods" position isn't super-comfortable, but I now find myself riding the road mostly in the drops with ease.

So...I guess I'm just saying...be careful with the "flare" on the road bike...you may, or may not, like it for that purpose. But, in the end "you do you" :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i'm finishing up an article now on bike position type stuff, and what i say in it is that i can't find any real differentiation between road and gravel positions. except (and this is a big except) my drops position, which is much shallower on my gravel bike. i'm riding gravel bars, mostly by profile, and 3T, and zipp, and they all feature: very shallow drop, like 110mm; a flare on the drop, but a final jig back so that the bar end protrudes straight back; vertical hoods mount; short reach.

but i'm thinking about going right back to the same position, road and gravel, by putting a gravel bar on my road bike. now, i don't bike race anymore. but if i did, i can't find anything that makes my gravel bar illegal. except... in the UCI rulebook there's a max width of 50cm, and some of my gravel bars exceed that by a little, as in, 51cm or 52cm. that's a pretty easy fix, if you're a bar maker.

my questions are:

1. am i the only guy? i now hate my road bars. i'm certainly putting a gravel bar on my road bike. it sprints better, it descends better, it does everything better.

2. is there a rule you can find that i can't find that would disallow these in road racing?


Sounds like if your drops position is too low on your road bike, then you just need to raise the bars, no?

The nice thing about deep(er) drops on a road bike is that it allows for a much wider range of easily achievable body positions, especially since it's OK to bend your arms ;-) Gerard do a whole series on this almost a decade ago:

https://gerard.cc/...2-points-lubberding/
https://gerard.cc/...7/27/2-points-rasch/
https://gerard.cc/...07/29/body-vs-bar-1/
https://gerard.cc/...08/02/body-vs-bar-2/
https://gerard.cc/...s-bar-height-part-3/

It's funny...I run a shallower drop bar on my gravel bike as opposed to my road bike (which has a deep drop), but the bar is significantly higher on my gravel bike (both drops and hoods position) despite the shallower drop...although having a small bit of suspension travel up front on this bike might be having an effect ;-)


i'm just getting ready to publish my "experiment", which was to find my position by feel on a Tacx NEO Bike, over the winter, and overlay that onto my road and gravel positions. i do need to come up about 10mm on my road position. but i get a LOT more utility out of my drops position with the gravel bar. it's not just the higher elevation. in fact, the primary difference isn't that (it's 110mm instead of 120mm or 125mm). it's the flare.

How about a riser bar that still has somewhat compact drop?

https://us.ritcheylogic.com/...max-spec-diagram.pdf
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
As far as rules, I believe i read somewhere that cyclocross banned or restricted flared drops due to accidents, but I could be completely wrong.

Yup. You're wrong. Maximum outside to outside width of 50cm is the only restriction. In practice, this caps bars at just above 48cm, measured c to c. I would imagine that's why the smallest size of the Superghiaia bars has slightly less sweep to the drops than the larger sizes; they wanted to keep it inside the "UCI legal" window.

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [nublar] [ In reply to ]
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nublar wrote:
Slowman wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
i'm finishing up an article now on bike position type stuff, and what i say in it is that i can't find any real differentiation between road and gravel positions. except (and this is a big except) my drops position, which is much shallower on my gravel bike. i'm riding gravel bars, mostly by profile, and 3T, and zipp, and they all feature: very shallow drop, like 110mm; a flare on the drop, but a final jig back so that the bar end protrudes straight back; vertical hoods mount; short reach.

but i'm thinking about going right back to the same position, road and gravel, by putting a gravel bar on my road bike. now, i don't bike race anymore. but if i did, i can't find anything that makes my gravel bar illegal. except... in the UCI rulebook there's a max width of 50cm, and some of my gravel bars exceed that by a little, as in, 51cm or 52cm. that's a pretty easy fix, if you're a bar maker.

my questions are:

1. am i the only guy? i now hate my road bars. i'm certainly putting a gravel bar on my road bike. it sprints better, it descends better, it does everything better.

2. is there a rule you can find that i can't find that would disallow these in road racing?


Sounds like if your drops position is too low on your road bike, then you just need to raise the bars, no?

The nice thing about deep(er) drops on a road bike is that it allows for a much wider range of easily achievable body positions, especially since it's OK to bend your arms ;-) Gerard do a whole series on this almost a decade ago:

https://gerard.cc/...2-points-lubberding/
https://gerard.cc/...7/27/2-points-rasch/
https://gerard.cc/...07/29/body-vs-bar-1/
https://gerard.cc/...08/02/body-vs-bar-2/
https://gerard.cc/...s-bar-height-part-3/

It's funny...I run a shallower drop bar on my gravel bike as opposed to my road bike (which has a deep drop), but the bar is significantly higher on my gravel bike (both drops and hoods position) despite the shallower drop...although having a small bit of suspension travel up front on this bike might be having an effect ;-)


i'm just getting ready to publish my "experiment", which was to find my position by feel on a Tacx NEO Bike, over the winter, and overlay that onto my road and gravel positions. i do need to come up about 10mm on my road position. but i get a LOT more utility out of my drops position with the gravel bar. it's not just the higher elevation. in fact, the primary difference isn't that (it's 110mm instead of 120mm or 125mm). it's the flare.


How about a riser bar that still has somewhat compact drop?

https://us.ritcheylogic.com/...max-spec-diagram.pdf

i've got a PD bar on a gravel bike i'm building that has a rise like that. my concern is that i don't want to change the hoods position.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [fredly] [ In reply to ]
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fredly wrote:
Quote:
As far as rules, I believe i read somewhere that cyclocross banned or restricted flared drops due to accidents, but I could be completely wrong.


Yup. You're wrong. Maximum outside to outside width of 50cm is the only restriction. In practice, this caps bars at just above 48cm, measured c to c. I would imagine that's why the smallest size of the Superghiaia bars has slightly less sweep to the drops than the larger sizes; they wanted to keep it inside the "UCI legal" window.

i'm frequently wrong. daily. but in this case it's andysstrongale who was wrong, not me. ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry! Juggling too many things, and responded to the wrong post!

Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm really enjoying flared low-drop bars for road riding and racing. I found 4 degrees to be not noticeable, other than not banging wrists, and 24 degrees to be too wide. 12 degrees is about right. Much improved cornering feel and stability on descents. I find it easier to get aero as its much easier to get my neck and head down with my elbows a bit wider and at a more comfortable angle. Aero is more about bending the elbows and this is easier for me with flared bars. Need to be a little more aware and defensive in crits, in case of someone hooking the bars, but this is the only disadvantage I see. Should also mention that I find breathing in the drops considerably easier with the wider flare.
Last edited by: carlosflanders: Jun 15, 20 21:50
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i'm finishing up an article now on bike position type stuff, and what i say in it is that i can't find any real differentiation between road and gravel positions. except (and this is a big except) my drops position, which is much shallower on my gravel bike. i'm riding gravel bars, mostly by profile, and 3T, and zipp, and they all feature: very shallow drop, like 110mm; a flare on the drop, but a final jig back so that the bar end protrudes straight back; vertical hoods mount; short reach.

but i'm thinking about going right back to the same position, road and gravel, by putting a gravel bar on my road bike. now, i don't bike race anymore. but if i did, i can't find anything that makes my gravel bar illegal. except... in the UCI rulebook there's a max width of 50cm, and some of my gravel bars exceed that by a little, as in, 51cm or 52cm. that's a pretty easy fix, if you're a bar maker.

my questions are:

1. am i the only guy? i now hate my road bars. i'm certainly putting a gravel bar on my road bike. it sprints better, it descends better, it does everything better.

2. is there a rule you can find that i can't find that would disallow these in road racing?

First post in years here but I finally broke down and got a Gravel bike, Diverge Comp 2021. The first thing I changed were the bars to the Zipp 70SL Xlpr. Just before I read your review on them. Love the Bar. Usually ride a 44 but decided on a 46. Always wanted to try a 46 even on my road bike. Improved handling on rough section and also opens up my chest more. It just feels more natural. I do like the fact that the Zipp does not change your position on the hoods much. Did you go wider on your gravel bars than your road bars?
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Re: A Gravel Bar on My New Road Bike [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I love short reach bars- they make the drops so much more usable. The only case I can think a deep reach might be better would be sprinting/ crit racing. On the flip side I dislike massive flare on both road/ gravel. My ideal bar has been the Easton ec70
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