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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.

So now I have to allow the triathlon police to come test me in order to save some idiot who thinks qualifying for Kona is worth putting his life at risk this way? Personally, I'd rather just let the idiots kill themselves. I still did that triathlon just as fast.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Actually let's just start with IN COMPETITION TESTING at all qualifier events and a short period therafter. No point testing at Kona or Clearwater. That is bullshit and too late. The main competition is for the slots, not for Kona podium (at least for 90% of qualifiers)...if they dope, it is for the prep for and the actual day of the qual race.


Dev

There should always be IN COMPETETION TESTING for Kona and Clearwater. It should just be made clear from the beginning that all AG qualifiers for those races will be tested at the conclusion of the qualifiying event prior to their slot being confirmed. By doing that there is no chance for them to be doped to the gills during their build up to the qualifier.

Would this be expensive, yes. But I think it would make sense.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.

So now I have to allow the triathlon police to come test me in order to save some idiot who thinks qualifying for Kona is worth putting his life at risk this way? Personally, I'd rather just let the idiots kill themselves. I still did that triathlon just as fast.
I doubt the WTC will be knocking on your door unless they have some hard evidence against you...we're talking about a company that recycles sponges here.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! Still they're not going to be coming to my door regardless as I am in no danger of qualifying for Kona.

I'm talking about the principle. The fact that I would have to agree to allow it.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.

So now I have to allow the triathlon police to come test me in order to save some idiot who thinks qualifying for Kona is worth putting his life at risk this way? Personally, I'd rather just let the idiots kill themselves. I still did that triathlon just as fast.
I've got no problem with it. I'd have no problem with them testing OA and AG podium places at ANY race that I do, whether it be WTC, USAT, whatever. If I'm going to bust my ass training to try and get a podium spot (even if it's just a local sprint), I don't want some doping fucknut jacking me out of it. I'd be even more pissed if I spent a year or more prepping and getting dicked out of a Kona slot because of it.

I'll file my TUE for the singulair and proventil inhaler that I use (legitimately for EIB, I hate having to use it, but I like being able to breathe on a regular basis), and you can show up to my work, my house, whatever, whenever.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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That's just sad.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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How about the only OOC testing is if someone turns someone else in, if they test positive then the guy who turned them in gets their slot and if he isn't positive then he has to pay for the test.

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Larry Himmel] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.

X3. When there is money, endorsements and carreer at stakes, as is the case for the true professional athletes, it all makes sense. None of that applies to age-group athletes. I see no rationale for the testing of age-group athletes. Have we completely lost perspective ? By world-class standard, even the best age-group athletes times are pedestrian. They are competing essentially for bragging rights. I find it sad that we are contemplating such measures to help settle bragging rights over a hobby (however serious and time-consuming that hobby may be).

Francois in Montreal
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Med Tent Man] [ In reply to ]
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Ken...I agree that the 12 months before the qual race is where the biggest benefits of doping lie.

However, it is pretty well impossible to know, in advance of the qual race who is going to qualify, as such, how do you pick from the 30K IM registered athletes world wide, who you will test out of competition?

The answer is you cannot. Which is why the WTC is not trying to nail the guy spending the past 12 months doped to the gills....

So you can only focus on race day and those that qualify.

Really once a guy has qualified, I could care less if he is doped to the gills in his build for Kona or Clearwater, cause that's the "party" that most age groupers are heading to. They are not competing with anyone else but themselves.

At the qualifier race, they are not competing with themselves, they are competing against the other guy. So as a starting point, let's test the other guy (and myself) on race day.

I added the 14 days post race so that the testers can catch up and perhaps test folks for stuff that would be in the system on qualifier race day. I don't know the half life on any of this stuff, but I expect for a lot of the stuff that gave buddy a boost on race day, it will be detectable in his body for a couple of weeks after.

Seriously, most of us want testing for the guys that win the kona/clearwater slots.

We don't really care that much about testing for who gets on the kona/clearwater podium....that's not what the fuss is about. I would imagine that there are a small subset like Joe Boness who DO CARE that the guy he is racing against for a Kona podium is clean but for 99% of age groupers worldwide, this is a complete non issue and these 99% of guys are the ones responding to slowman's poll.

Dev
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Here's a thought-make the OOC testing pool like the wetsuit. Do you want to go to Kona or Clearwater? Then on January 1 each year-you are required to submit your name to the OOC testing pool. If your name is not submitted, then you are not eligible to accept a qualifying slot or compete in Kona for that year.

I would think that any age grouper planning on using PED's would have a hard time doing so knowing he'd be putting their name on that list every year. There seems to be too many ways around testing the way it is being set up right now, as illustrated by concerns being raised in this and the other thread.

The train has left the station and there is no point in debating whether or not it is right, now we need to make sure it is 100% effective.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Ken...I agree that the 12 months before the qual race is where the biggest benefits of doping lie.

However, it is pretty well impossible to know, in advance of the qual race who is going to qualify, as such, how do you pick from the 30K IM registered athletes world wide, who you will test out of competition?

The answer is you cannot. Which is why the WTC is not trying to nail the guy spending the past 12 months doped to the gills....

So you can only focus on race day and those that qualify.

A guy is walking down the street one night, and spots someone, obviously drunk, on his hands an knees under a street lamp. He asks the drunk what he's doing:

Drunk: "I'm looking for my house keys"
Guy: "Where do you think you dropped them?"
Drunk: [pointing across the street] "Over there"
Guy: "Why are you looking here, then?"
Drunk: "The light's better here"

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"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.

What JoeO said.

Seriously: if someone get's banned because they have abnormal testosterone levels naturally, they are being excluded by design. If that same person is excluded because someone cheated and beat them, at least they weren't excluded by a rule they were excluded because someone BROKE the rules.

The more rules you make, the bigger the hassle. I think the history of endurance sports has shown that even when banned (and tested for) people will take drugs. People wear fins to go faster, people cut the course to save time and both those are against the rules.

Remember the song "Signs": signs, signs, everywhere the signs... Endurance sports is becoming rules, rules, everywhere the rules.

----------------------------------------------------
Note to self: increase training load.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [eganski] [ In reply to ]
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I like your proposal of putting in your name to the OOC pool up front...or maybe the moment you sign up, you tick the box that says, "competing for Kona slot and agree to sign up for OOC pool". Of course, you still need a fair way to ensure that Mr. Clyde is not being hauled out of the trading pit while he is in the process of a massive financial transaction that could take down Lehman brothers, (ooops, that was a year ago...), but this would be a good starting point.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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That's just sad.
Why? Because I don't care if they implement drug testing for AG'ers? It's sad that it's becoming necessary, but if they implemented it with a minimum year ban for first offense, there'd be a lot less dopers.

You think people would still litter if there were a 1 or 2 hour penalty instead of a 10 minute penalty? What's 10 minutes in the context of a 12+ hour race?

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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This is why WTC needs a testing program!! Good article from Outside Magazine http://outside.away.com/outside/bodywork/200311/200311_drug_test_1.html

Stuart Stevens had no problem getting access to HGH, EPO and Steroids from a doctor in California. The doctor had “helped” several other professional and amateur athletes. If you do not test, people will cheat. It is as simple as that.

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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Why? Because I don't care if they implement drug testing for AG'ers?
No because you are willing to support such an invasion of your privacy (and mine) just to be sure that my local-yokel sprint triathlon time is legit

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It's sad that it's becoming necessary

It isn't necessary. That's the point. Thinking that such a measure is necessary reveals, in my opinion, a complete loss of perspective.

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but if they implemented it with a minimum year ban for first offense, there'd be a lot less dopers.

If we simply allowed the police to kick down any age-groupers door and search their houses for EPO or other items, there would probably be a lot less dopers too.

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You think people would still litter if there were a 1 or 2 hour penalty instead of a 10 minute penalty? What's 10 minutes in the context of a 12+ hour race?

A time penalty in a race does not invade my privacy. I wouldn't care if you made the penalty immediate disqualification. In fact, if that were the penalty for drafting, I would support it. Because all it would affect is standings in the race. But then, they'd have to actually enforce it.
Last edited by: JoeO: Sep 15, 09 11:33
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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me to man ! pass the bong

Slowtwitch bitchist place on planet earth
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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Why? Because I don't care if they implement drug testing for AG'ers?
No because you are willing to support such an invasion of your privacy (and mine) just to be sure that my local-yokel sprint triathlon time is legit

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It's sad that it's becoming necessary

It isn't necessary. That's the point. Thinking that such a measure is necessary reveals, in my opinion, a complete loss of perspective.

Please. Invasion of my privacy? I can be drug tested by my employer at any time at his discretion. I accepted that when I took the job. If you know up front there is a chance you can be tested, then you have a choice. Either accept it or don't race. I was in the military. Same thing, except there they could show up and search your living space as well.

I'm not saying it's necessary for the "local yokel" triathlons, although for the bigger triathlons or Worlds qualifiers, etc., its looking like it might be. I'm saying I wouldn't care if they did implement it. In the grand scheme of things peeing in a cup every once in a while is no big deal. I think that anyone that qualifies for WC, Nationals, Team USA, any of the biggies SHOULD have immediate testing. All for it. I've been tested probably 25 times in my life, I never considered an "invasion of my privacy".

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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SO who is going to pay for this? WTC? I would say most pros still aren't tested enough, especially at the long course level of the sport.

Do you all want to chip in an extra $10-20 per entry to pay for this? Drug testing is wicked expensive, and that's just generic pee testing. The out of Competition tests are even more so, as you have to pay people to administer them.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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Please. Invasion of my privacy? I can be drug tested by my employer at any time at his discretion. I accepted that when I took the job. If you know up front there is a chance you can be tested, then you have a choice. Either accept it or don't race. I was in the military. Same thing, except there they could show up and search your living space as well.


This isn't your job and it isn't the military. It's a hobby. If you are on drugs in the military and maybe you launch that rocket or fire off your gun and cause an international incident. If you are on drugs in you job, maybe you screw up that contract and a hundred people don't get their Christmas bonuses. If you are on drugs in Ironman Lake Placid, then maybe I don't get a Kona slot. Not even remotely in the same league, no matter how much I really really want to go there.

I realize that if they implement the rule and I sign up, I am agreeing to it. I don't dispute that. If they do implement it, I might even sign, just like all the rest of the sheep. I am simply saying that to allow something like drug testing to creep into age-group triathlons is putting an importance on the outcome that is far beyond the magnitude of the "crime". It is using a sledgehammer to swat a fly

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I'm not saying it's necessary for the "local yokel" triathlons,


Actually you kinda did:

"If I'm going to bust my ass training to try and get a podium spot (even if it's just a local sprint), I don't want some doping fucknut jacking me out of it"

But I accept your clarification. I just don't see that your getting "jacked out of it" as something that merits me having to pee in a cup and being tested for whatever the current administration deems "recreational drugs" or whatever else they don't like. Even more so out of competition.

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although for the bigger triathlons or Worlds qualifiers, etc., its looking like it might be. I'm saying I wouldn't care if they did implement it. In the grand scheme of things peeing in a cup every once in a while is no big deal. I think that anyone that qualifies for WC, Nationals, Team USA, any of the biggies SHOULD have immediate testing. All for it. I've been tested probably 25 times in my life, I never considered an "invasion of my privacy".
John



I've been tested it a couple of times and I have considered it an invasion of my privacy every time. However I realized, in those cases it clearly was necessary. In this case it is absolutely not. It does nothing but make some hobbyists feel better about themselves.

I am one of those hobbyists. If I ever miss a Kona slot by a place or two, I'll always wonder, "was it because some other guy took drugs?". But even if I am certain it was, I don't see the necessary remedy for that to force that other guy to pee in a cup while on his family vacation. Hell I don't even see the remedy as forcing him to pee into a cup while at a the race.

All anybody is "winning" here is bragging rights.
Last edited by: JoeO: Jul 25, 12 13:35
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Is my understanding correct that most OTC cold and allergy medicine contain banned substances? I understand that these drugs may contain benefits and why you might want to ban professionals from taking them. But, most clients, customers and co-workers don't want you sneezing, hacking and coughing all over them. So, I don't think that those sorts of medicines should be banned for AGers. Same thing for recreation drugs where use by professionals might affects the image of the sport, but even that rather weak case doesn't apply to AGer's. As far as the rules of out of competition testing goes, I think that they could end up being applied very unfairly. Being tested is part of a professionl's job so a professional should expect to have tests from time to time. But, it's not part of an AGers' job, and their jobs might require them to be somewhere on short notice or not be able to produce a sample within a given period of time. So, IMO, it doesn't make sense for the same rules to apply to professionals and AGers.
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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The modifications I would like to see to the program are mainly to keep it simple and effective.

-When you accept/pay for your kona slot you submit a sample at the same time to be tested.
-No OOC testing for AG, simply too complicated to implement now
-testing only screens for the big PEDs, HGH, test, epo, amphetmines...
-No TUEs, ( I suspect the TUEs for the big PEDs are not common)
-2 year suspension from WTC events on positives
-positives are kept private and not disclosed
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [CTL] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think some of you guys are getting it. The WTC is not going to spend money having random OOC tests. They are not going to be proactive, but reactive. If they get a report that Doctor X was giving out EPO, and Triathlete Y had written Doctor X a check, they'll do an OOC.

The problem is there has been more than 1 report with hard evidence of people doping in races. There are posts here about doctors offering people anything they want. There are probably more than 10 Puerto / Balco operations going on and I'm sure they're reaching out to desperate amateur athletes with deep pockets (ie triathletes trying to get to Kona).
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [furiousferret] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think some of you guys are getting it. The WTC is not going to spend money having random OOC tests.
I can't speak for everyone, but I doubt that anyone believes that WTC will be doing any random OOC tests.

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"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
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"Either accept it or don't race."

You state it as an either/or proposition. However, there is a third option. I can exercise my rights to open my mouth and talk to someone at WTC or make a big fuss on forum message boards. I know you would prefer that I not exercise that right, because your position is so entrenched. Based on previous comments, you didn't seem to mind giving away rights by being in the military, keeping in mind that all civilians have more rights than the highest military ranking short of commander in chief. I really don't find it a moving argument that you don't consider certain things to be an invasion of your privacy, and therefore I should not consider those things to be an invasion of my privacy either, and I should either accept your viewpoint or not race. I will make my own decisions in that regard, and I will "reserve my rights", no matter how many of yours you choose to give away.

Here are my changes I referred to when I voted "yes, with changes":

1. Age groupers should be eligible for money prizes.
2. If you check the box saying you wish to compete for a money prize, you may be subject to being entered into both in and out of competition testing pools.

If there's no money involved, then if you don't podium you can just accept the fact that you're not training or doping hard enough in your "local yokel" race or your international yokel IM. No TUE required.

I know you've put your coaching shingle out so you're treating the sport seriously, but it's not serious at all for the athlete except all those hours training and then a race to see how he can execute the training in a timed race. If you're going wild over a plaque or a medal that you or your clients miss out on, you're missing the mark. There's no professional conduct policy for coaches, no certification board unless you count a few classes that USAT puts on, no organized business bureau to complain about bad coaches, and not much more than lunch money to be earned unless you're Joe Friel.

For the age group athletes, there's nothing to be gained except the satisfaction of a race well done, a token prize at the finish line, and maybe a chance to pay another $550 to go to Kona, where they still won't be competing for money. Then they get up again in 1 or 2 mornings after their small or big race and continue their day job. You do the same thing. So it's not serious at all. Why the need to make a big deal with drug testing? Is it so I can pay extra in my race fees for something I don't care about but you do? Maybe you should pay the testing fees for all athletes if you care so much.
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