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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
Alright, I've jumped in. Got 2 VCS coming from probikekit for $50 each. Got silca tubless valve stems coming, and some orange seal. Plus the plug kit TomA is "plugging."

I'm going to mount these on my jet 6+s and ride the shit out of them. Drop rides, crits & road races. Once I'm comfortable I know what I'm doing with this tubeless setup I'll make the switch on my jet + disc & 9.

What plug kit is this. I think I might want to try it as well.


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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http://365cycles.com/genuine-innovations-tubeless-tackle-tire-repair-kit-with-bacon.html?fee=1&fep=43947&gclid=CKe12q7gwtMCFUpLDQodeyIHNA

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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Sean H wrote:
Alright, I've jumped in. Got 2 VCS coming from probikekit for $50 each. Got silca tubless valve stems coming, and some orange seal. Plus the plug kit TomA is "plugging."

I'm going to mount these on my jet 6+s and ride the shit out of them. Drop rides, crits & road races. Once I'm comfortable I know what I'm doing with this tubeless setup I'll make the switch on my jet + disc & 9.


What plug kit is this. I think I might want to try it as well.

This: https://www.amazon.com/...s+tubeless+tire+plug

I've only seen it NOT work once now...and that was on a fairly wide slice on an off-road ride that required multiple plugs to even attempt closing. It initially held, but the riding surface was so rough that it didn't stay in there long. Not something you'd worry about in a road application.

Besides the included rubber coated plugs, I've also had good luck with pieces of cotton butcher's cord, which soak up the sealant and give it something to "clot" on...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Sean H wrote:
Alright, I've jumped in. Got 2 VCS coming from probikekit for $50 each. Got silca tubless valve stems coming, and some orange seal. Plus the plug kit TomA is "plugging."

I'm going to mount these on my jet 6+s and ride the shit out of them. Drop rides, crits & road races. Once I'm comfortable I know what I'm doing with this tubeless setup I'll make the switch on my jet + disc & 9.


What plug kit is this. I think I might want to try it as well.


This: https://www.amazon.com/...s+tubeless+tire+plug

I've only seen it NOT work once now...and that was on a fairly wide slice on an off-road ride that required multiple plugs to even attempt closing. It initially held, but the riding surface was so rough that it didn't stay in there long. Not something you'd worry about in a road application.

Besides the included rubber coated plugs, I've also had good luck with pieces of cotton butcher's cord, which soak up the sealant and give it something to "clot" on...

Gotcha, I was mistaken. I thought Sean was talking about plugs instead of rim strips. I did see these patching details before


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Hey trail,

So there are no drawbacks using a tube "inside" this tubeless CS? Would it be the same as using a "normal" clincher with a victoria latex tube?

Thanks for clearing those questions for me!

Regards,
Stefano
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [jens] [ In reply to ]
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jens wrote:

Hence my choice of the old 808 with 20C Crono tubular. Still the best combination of aerodynamics and Crr around.

To no one in particular ...

Anyone try, or have thoughts on, using SS20 (as in a new-old SS20) on an 808 Firecrest?

vs. either new SS23 or Corsa Speed?
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Stefano] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Would it be the same as using a "normal" clincher with a victoria latex tube?
Yes.



Quote:
So there are no drawbacks using a tube "inside" this tubeless CS?
After installation, no. The only drawback specific to this tire seems to be risk of pinching the tube given the tight installation of the CS. But once you've got it installed and proven to be not pinched, then you'd be good to go.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [trail] [ In reply to ]
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unless you get a flat then have to change the tube on the road. which is why I'm going tubeless with the puncture kit.

Strava I Instagram I Team Every Man Jack I
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Thomas,

I knew you said it would be a while before you you might share the Enve 7 data and you were not sure if you would share or who you would share with... but I'm wondering if there is an update on that for two reasons :
- I have not seen any numbers from A2 tunnel with Enve 7 and it would be great to see how it compares to Hed Jet 6 !
- We saw GP TT 25 result on a rim that is 25mm at brake track, now I'm curious to know how that same tire react on a rim supposeed to be design for 25 tires... does the difference gets smaller relative to SS 23 and CS 23 ?

By the way I participated in the Go Fund Me, I was late into the game though as I missed your original announcement due to business trip on the other side of the planet with little access to internet, but defintely a good idea, hope we will see more independent test results like this !
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Ok so if I am running the GP4SII how many watts am I sacrificing to the CS and the SS? 3watts a tire? It can't be much more than that, is it? That would equate to 20-30sec over 40km?

I am going to be doing a couple of HIM that will be on some roads that are not exactly in the greatest conditions. The luxury of living in the north, I have not had any issues at all with my GP4SII's.

I am giving up a lot of time, I will have to rethink my approach, i.e. chances of a flat, time to change flat, vs not getting a flat and saving time and watts.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [HonestYP] [ In reply to ]
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You seem to have already come to the conclusion that the GP4000 is more flat resistant than the CS. I ride both tires in all sorts of conditions and have never noticed that one is more flat resistant than the other. In fact I flatted a GP4000 last we after I had just switched from the CS.

The CS is more expensive and has a lower Crr and higher CdA, that we know, but I am unaware that anyone has found it to be more flat prone, fragile, shorter lifespan... I remeber Tom A rode his Turbo cottons in all sorts of conditions and never found it to be lacking for general riding.

Basically I wouldn't worry about the CS. If you are going to hit something that punctures a tire, it is probably going through any tire short of a Specialized Armadillo, but then the Armadillo takes about 20 more watts per tire to roll at 30 mph.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [BrianB] [ In reply to ]
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BrianB wrote:
jens wrote:

Hence my choice of the old 808 with 20C Crono tubular. Still the best combination of aerodynamics and Crr around.


To no one in particular ...

Anyone try, or have thoughts on, using SS20 (as in a new-old SS20) on an 808 Firecrest?

vs. either new SS23 or Corsa Speed?

I have the SS20 and the VCS TLR but I'm not sure what is faster. SS20 looks pretty fast though.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
You seem to have already come to the conclusion that the GP4000 is more flat resistant than the CS. I ride both tires in all sorts of conditions and have never noticed that one is more flat resistant than the other. In fact I flatted a GP4000 last we after I had just switched from the CS.

The CS is more expensive and has a lower Crr and higher CdA, that we know, but I am unaware that anyone has found it to be more flat prone, fragile, shorter lifespan... I remeber Tom A rode his Turbo cottons in all sorts of conditions and never found it to be lacking for general riding.

Basically I wouldn't worry about the CS. If you are going to hit something that punctures a tire, it is probably going through any tire short of a Specialized Armadillo, but then the Armadillo takes about 20 more watts per tire to roll at 30 mph.

This is the type of response I was looking for. My only reason coming to the very slight pre conclusion that the GP4000 wasn't as flat prone was because of the vector layer it has compared to nothing that the CS has. But if the tire has proven to no have issues and has somewhat of a sustainable tread life, it is obviously on of the no brainers to ride on.

Yeah I am not going to race on the Armadillo or Gatorskin, no sense in trying to ride up hill even on the flats!
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
I ride both tires in all sorts of conditions and have never noticed that one is more flat resistant than the other. In fact I flatted a GP4000 last we after I had just switched from the CS.

I don't think the relative flat resistance can be gauged by the anecdotal experience of one rider. You'd need either a controlled lab test or a test involving larger populations of riders.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [pyf] [ In reply to ]
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pyf wrote:
Hi Thomas,

I knew you said it would be a while before you you might share the Enve 7 data and you were not sure if you would share or who you would share with... but I'm wondering if there is an update on that for two reasons :
- I have not seen any numbers from A2 tunnel with Enve 7 and it would be great to see how it compares to Hed Jet 6 !
- We saw GP TT 25 result on a rim that is 25mm at brake track, now I'm curious to know how that same tire react on a rim supposeed to be design for 25 tires... does the difference gets smaller relative to SS 23 and CS 23 ?

By the way I participated in the Go Fund Me, I was late into the game though as I missed your original announcement due to business trip on the other side of the planet with little access to internet, but defintely a good idea, hope we will see more independent test results like this !


For those that donated feel free to send me a message about Enve data. I will share it with you now as a thank you for contributing and to give donors something special in return. Despite the initial GoFundMe only promising one set of data for an underfunded campaign at time of testing - about $700 raised at time of testing, I am happy to experiment with this model. It continues to amaze me the personal questions I get about this study yet people couldn't contribute a Starbucks latte. As sociologist hobbyist I find it fascinating.

Anyway, the stipulation is that the DATA is not to be released publicly or discussed for the time being. I will release publicly down the road the data and either amend the original post or start a new thread. I would have liked to setup a *patreon* sort of model following the *bonus content* of thou who shall not be named but I don't think there is a GoFundMe option to provide that for donors. If there is someone please let me know. I of course will share the data with Tom A, JeffP, and Jens, RRuff and others who are publishing data for the good off all and to support their efforts.

For that still want to donate they can do so at: https://www.gofundme.com/findfaster


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
It continues to amaze me the personal questions I get about this study yet people couldn't contribute a Starbucks latte. As sociologist hobbyist I find it fascinating.

Almost 3300 people have checked out this thread so far, you just wonder what kind of neat stuff we'd learn if everybody threw in a buck.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Thomas - I was the first to donate I believe and am also as bewildered as you that folks can't throw you at least a few bucks.

I have jet+ wheels, so not really interested in the data for the enve wheels other than which wheels tested faster overall and by how much? Can you send me a PM with that info?

Thx

Strava I Instagram I Team Every Man Jack I
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
Hey Thomas - I was the first to donate I believe and am also as bewildered as you that folks can't throw you at least a few bucks.

I have jet+ wheels, so not really interested in the data for the enve wheels other than which wheels tested faster overall and by how much? Can you send me a PM with that info?

Thx

Sean H I appreciate you donation and it shows in your growth in the sport with regard to your attention to detail. I am small potatoes, but I work hard and you remind me a lot of myself in the search of info. It amazes how many people messaged prior to testing about tires referencing rollers tests from magazines and why we were testing the tires we were testing. Frankly they didn't know anything about the tires. I had to politely explain that clearly the test was paid for a by a manufacturer that wanted to test tires against some of conti's slower tires not faster tires, for good reason.

It continues to amaze me that people don't understand the simple line, "if you are not paying for the product, you are the product".


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I'd encourage you to try this model again at some point in the future. My only critique is that there is an upper limit on what you can test... basically just wheels, tires, and frames. The rest of it ends up being pretty personal.

Just thinking out loud here but, iirc, you're hooked up to a computrainer at A2. If you had a crank-based power meter, I wonder if there's any way to tease out the "watts-to spin" effect of a disc vs a 90mm rear vs maybe even something like a HED 3 rear. Wind speed is 30mph so maybe get into 52x12 and see what sort of wattage you'd need to hold 30mph at the wheel... you'd need something more sophisticated than that as you're trying to tease out a small difference and the difference is likely much smaller than the speed range a human would have but I think you get the idea of what I'm driving at.

Maybe Geoff could set something up where the real time aero watts plus an offset for crr gets sent to the computrainer which would be set up in erg mode. You could look at the difference between the power reading at the computrainer and the power at your crank-based power meter. There will be a difference between the two naturally due to drivetrain losses but the difference should, in theory, change between a disc and a deep rear wheel.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I'd encourage you to try this model again at some point in the future. My only critique is that there is an upper limit on what you can test... basically just wheels, tires, and frames. The rest of it ends up being pretty personal.

Just thinking out loud here but, iirc, you're hooked up to a computrainer at A2. If you had a crank-based power meter, I wonder if there's any way to tease out the "watts-to spin" effect of a disc vs a 90mm rear vs maybe even something like a HED 3 rear. Wind speed is 30mph so maybe get into 52x12 and see what sort of wattage you'd need to hold 30mph at the wheel... you'd need something more sophisticated than that as you're trying to tease out a small difference and the difference is likely much smaller than the speed range a human would have but I think you get the idea of what I'm driving at.

Maybe Geoff could set something up where the real time aero watts plus an offset for crr gets sent to the computrainer which would be set up in erg mode. You could look at the difference between the power reading at the computrainer and the power at your crank-based power meter. There will be a difference between the two naturally due to drivetrain losses but the difference should, in theory, change between a disc and a deep rear wheel.

As you personally know this was cobbled together last minute as I wanted to piggy back on the tunnel being open. I was under the false impression that they wouldn't just do testing for a couple of hours and you needed to book the entire day. Had I known that wasn't the case I would have gone up like originally planned in June in conjunction with travel to Eagleman 70.3 and Raleigh 70.3. I would like to do something more planned in the future. This was a good start to understand the process, but having some insider knowledge to Brian/Heath/Kiley, I think people really underestimate the personal time commitment people made to the process. I thank you for your support. Hopefully you got the cleats and post back alright. Thanks for those :)


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [ericlambi] [ In reply to ]
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ericlambi wrote:
Hey NoLegs - Have you actually ridden that Gretchen at all? Wondering how the brake track is. I'm very tempted to get one so I can run these tubeless as well.

Had my race this past Sunday using the Dash Cycle Gretchen disc and the Corsa Speed tire. I went tubeless. No issues with the tire of choice or the wheel. I'm sold on this tire and tubeless for racing. Currently I'm building a new front wheel using the AForce AI33 rim and going tubeless up front as well.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Nolegs] [ In reply to ]
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Nolegs wrote:
ericlambi wrote:
Hey NoLegs - Have you actually ridden that Gretchen at all? Wondering how the brake track is. I'm very tempted to get one so I can run these tubeless as well.


Had my race this past Sunday using the Dash Cycle Gretchen disc and the Corsa Speed tire. I went tubeless. No issues with the tire of choice or the wheel. I'm sold on this tire and tubeless for racing. Currently I'm building a new front wheel using the AForce AI33 rim and going tubeless up front as well.

Sweet, thanks for following up!

Dimond Bikes
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Nolegs] [ In reply to ]
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Oops. Wrong thread.
Last edited by: Scott_B: May 15, 17 10:48
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Why not test the tires HED recommends for their plus rims. The Conti attack 22mm?
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Dudaddy] [ In reply to ]
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Dudaddy wrote:
Why not test the tires HED recommends for their plus rims. The Conti attack 22mm?

A lot of this was laid out in the pre-test post to help people understand why these equipment choices. The reason why is we wanted to find the fastest setup. Given how slow the Attack rolls it is not likely to be the fastest setup.


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