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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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So a good guess would be that the 23 mm GPTT would be equivalent aerowise to the new 23 mm SS. I have made the switch to GPTTs this year from GP4000s - baby steps to the SS.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Ok, I sent Dan a massage on Friday but I never heard back so I didn't want to violate his new rule regarding publishing data on here, thus I have posted the first bit of data from the Wind Tunnel Test here. Hopefully that is ok otherwise feel free to pull this thread Dan.

Please not this is just start. I will go back and update, add more data, links, raw data etc but give me some time. This is just being released right now because a bunch of people have asked what tire they should run and I want to nip the inquiries in the bud.

Given the lack of OLD 23 SS availability it seems like the Corsa Speed is probably a pretty good choice of tire.


Cool. Can we get the y-axis in terms of CdA? Or else indicate air speed and density that the power values represent?

If you'd like, I could create a combined aero+Crr estimate for the Corsa Speed and the old SS23 (since I have Crr values for them).

Of course Tom, I would like to provide more details. More to come and I'll get you what you need to compute the aero+crr. I also have the Enve 7 data to work thru too. Btw, I listened to your appearance on the cycling TT podcast. You kept me awake on the way up there and ENTERTAINED!!! Also, I have decided to make a permanent residence in Clermont FL. Frankly, I can't keep driving my ALL my possessions twice a year across the US and decided I need to keep one place 9-10 months where I can train and keep stuff. I don't plan to go nuts with stuff, but I would like to get a set of rollers and do some of my own testing as you have encouraged others to do.

Thanks for the kind words...nothing worse than a boring podcast. I'm glad we made it entertaining for you. Did you know there was a part 2?

It's good to hear you're going to get started on taking your own data. Let me know if you have any questions.

As to the fixture tare, I was only asking because it's good to note. Sometimes it's removed, and sometimes not. The Specialized data includes the fixture drag...then again, having seen the fixtures (and the sections) and discussed this with Cam and Chris, it's pretty safe to say that their fixture adds VERY minimal drag, even out to higher yaw angles.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Scott_B] [ In reply to ]
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Scott_B wrote:
So a good guess would be that the 23 mm GPTT would be equivalent aerowise to the new 23 mm SS. I have made the switch to GPTTs this year from GP4000s - baby steps to the SS.

I don't think it is safe to assume that. I would assume the drag profile would be similar but more drag


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [TPerkin2000] [ In reply to ]
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TPerkin2000 wrote:
Can you put up the Enve 7 data?


It is going to be a bit still for Enve 7 data and I am still deciding what to do with it frankly. I still DO need to put more work into the HED JET+6 Black data for real and do a better job before I even think about the Enve 7 data. The only reason I put up the HED data in such poor display is because so many people were curious what tires to run and I wanted to make sure I let them decide.

I said in the GoFundMe if the threshold wasn't reached I would do one wheel and two tires. It wasn't reach and I did one wheel and four tires. I may save the Enve data for the time being for the people who donated to the campaign and took a chance on this and offer it as a reward in order to encourage future research and giving of this sort of model. I may also offer it to them early and then release later on. I haven't decided. Ultimately the dollars that were raised were done so by a very small number of people, only 25, many who gave a lot, almost too much. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the undertaking that Kiley put in for his piece. This was a crazy amount of work planning, traveling, doing etc with lots of work still to be done.

I really want to see more of this sort of testing and I think someone actually could even make a business here, but the business only works if people are willing to support the independent model. The independent model can't be supported by advertising, sponsors etc for obvious reasons which means there needs to be critical mass of people who are willing to donate a Starbucks coffee to read something while they have their Starbucks coffee.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Apr 21, 17 14:34
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Totally agree with this. I didn't see the campaign prior to you going but have donated. Thanks for all the work!
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [TPerkin2000] [ In reply to ]
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TPerkin2000 wrote:
Totally agree with this. I didn't see the campaign prior to you going but have donated. Thanks for all the work!

Thanks for the support of the campaign. I sent you a little teaser DM in case you were interested in which wheel to run/purchase etc.


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Canadian wrote:
Out of curiosity, can I ask why you chose the variable pressures for each tire? Also, how did you measure the pressure?


We chose various pressures because in our opinion you are going to ride the the tires at different pressures. I definitely realize there is no true apples-to-apples comparison and everyone will choose slightly different pressures. In addition the Enve 7 data will be coming out as well. We ended up doing two wheels and three tires instead of the three wheels and two tires.

Fwiw, we also tried to match valve extenders and keep them as short as possible. The HED JET+ we used a 72mm tube (60mm depth) and on the Enve we used 82mm (71mm depth).

Had I had more time I would have reached out to Josh to use a Silca pump for testing, and although there was a Silca pump there it was old and the dial was too small to read properly. We ended up using my Topeak Joe Blow. I realize it is $40 and this is the second one of these I have had in 8 years or so. I consider it to be a great pump, easy to use, and based on the Amazon reviews others tend to occur. As for the accuracy, I am sure it isn't accurate as the Silca pump. I can say I did some pressure testing last year of a different sort and the pump seemed consistent. I was measuring # of strokes to get to a certain PSI.

Thanks!


Chris Thornham
Co-Founder And Previous Owner Of FLO Cycling
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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So is the corsa speed a race day only tire or could I use it as an everyday tire too? I'm definitely mounting a set tubeless on my jet + disc and 9 for tri race day, but now I'm thinking of just mounting a pair tubeless on my everyday 6+ set too as I'm going to be doing a lot of cycling racing over the summer.

Strava I Instagram I Team Every Man Jack I
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
So is the corsa speed a race day only tire or could I use it as an everyday tire too? I'm definitely mounting a set tubeless on my jet + disc and 9 for tri race day, but now I'm thinking of just mounting a pair tubeless on my everyday 6+ set too as I'm going to be doing a lot of cycling racing over the summer.

Frankly I would love some feedback from some everyday users. I have seen mixed reviews of the tire, but just like the Supersonic, I wonder if that is because people don't know to install it. From people that I trust to install correctly, aka Tom A, it seems to be ok.


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I'm not an everyday user, but I have done one 50 mile test ride with them on a HED 6+/9+ set.

The first time I tried mounting that tire was very difficult. I will say I'm not very experienced mounting tires and it got a lot easier after the first.

I ran them with vittoria latex tubes and conti valve extenders with orange seal. They felt very fast to me. Planning to run them at 70.3 Santa Rosa now that I've seen this data.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [astig] [ In reply to ]
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astig wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:
knighty76 wrote:
I wonder how much of this I can extrapolate to my Hed C2 rims which I think are 2mm narrower across the brake track. We've seen data for the Flo rims but they are also wider.

For my Renn disc I'd like to think I just go for the Corsa because it is in a P3C and the leading edge is fared. But I recall somebody clever telling me that the trailing edge matters aswell.

Damn, what to do.

Thanks for sharing Thomas.

Just order the 23mm Corsa. I put one on my Zipp FCs last night and they pass the eyeball aero test quite well. The odd thing is that they are noticably narrower than the Corsa G+ tires in the same 700x23 size

How difficult was it to install on the FC? Have you tried removing it? It was a PITA to install/remove on an enve 7.8. I've switched to an 808 nsw and super 9 and hoping it's easier

Actually very easy to install on the Firecresr. I was running a pair of the Corsa G+ tires before and they were almost too loose. I had a G+ blowout the other day on the rear and the bead was off the tire completely on one side and partially on the other. The TLR seems just a smudge tighter than the G+. The TLR is no harder to install on the FCs than a GP4000. The installed width at 105 psi was 0.935", which I think is 23.5ish mm. I have been testing them on my rollers and they are the fastest tire I have in my arsenal.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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That's great to hear! Order placed. I'm just wondering now if it's safe to do a tubeless conversion or just run latex tubes with sealant.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [astig] [ In reply to ]
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for those running tubeless....are you just finding a threaded valve extender and running a nut down onto the carbon?
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:

Actually very easy to install on the Firecresr. I was running a pair of the Corsa G+ tires before and they were almost too loose. I had a G+ blowout the other day on the rear and the bead was off the tire completely

That is slightly concerning. The reason I gave up on cotton-based clinchers in the first place is because they were repeatedly blowing off my Firecrest rims on hot and humid days. It never happened while racing, but I can only image if it did. The problem with the blowoff is that it goes flat almost instantaneously. The same thing was not happening with blown rubber tires and that is how I actually landed on the Supersonic way back in I think 2011


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:


Actually very easy to install on the Firecresr. I was running a pair of the Corsa G+ tires before and they were almost too loose. I had a G+ blowout the other day on the rear and the bead was off the tire completely


That is slightly concerning. The reason I gave up on cotton-based clinchers in the first place is because they were repeatedly blowing off my Firecrest rims on hot and humid days. It never happened while racing, but I can only image if it did. The problem with the blowoff is that it goes flat almost instantaneously. The same thing was not happening with blown rubber tires and that is how I actually landed on the Supersonic way back in I think 2011


That's not going to happen though with a rim that has the tubeless-ready raised rim bed areas under the bead. I noticed that with Turbo Cottons on the Jet+. They're "locked on" and you have to force the beads off the shelf sideways with your thumbs to unseat them.

As far as "everyday" use goes...I have at least 600-700 miles on the CS I set up tubeless on my rear Jet+. It seems to be wearing fine (not excessively fast) with only 2 "incidences", neither of them major...and both arguably being evidence in favor of the approach. First, was a small staple I noticed prior to a lunch ride (where I was under time constraints) that had embedded in the tread. In hindsight, I should've spun the tire before pulling it out, or left it in for the short ride. I didn't...I pulled it out and then dealt with a bit of sealant spraying out. It was a tiny hole (too small to use a plug on) and I knew the sealant would hold eventually, but at first it wouldn't hold >60psi without blowing out the sealant "clot". I grabbed a different bike for the ride and by the time I got back an hour later it could hold full pressure.

The second incident was during an after-work "crit practice"...going through some turns, the rear felt "loose" and actually slid out slightly. Fearing it was losing air, I stopped and sure enough, it had. I took a look around the tire for something that had punctured it, and only saw a small bit of sealant in one of the tread grooves. Wiped it off and didn't see a hole. I gave the tire a few spins, grabbed my frame pump (Silca Impero Ultimate :-) and pumped it back up. Held fine for the rest of the night.

Other that...its been great. Holds air better than a latex tube, too. I probably should pull the valve core and top off the sealant soon...just in case ;-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Apr 22, 17 7:00
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
As far as "everyday" use goes...I have at least 600-700 miles on the CS I set up tubeless on my rear Jet+.

x2. I have CS on my Jet+ (front and rear) and I have maybe 400 miles on my trial run including competitive group rides over some bad pavement, and one circuit race.

All systems go so far, though I haven't had a flat of any kind to test sealability. Corner grip was great (circuit race had a 180-turn I was killing people on). No evidence of excessive wear or tears.

They seem at least comparable to the Supersonic in durability, and maybe better than the old Evo CX clinchers, which I thought were quite fragile.

I did notice one small issue I had from installation on the Jet+ - on one wheel I tightened down the stem nut so much that it deformed the carbon fairing just slightly. So some care is needed with the Jets on finding a balance between rock-solid stem seal and not deforming the fairing.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
As far as "everyday" use goes...I have at least 600-700 miles on the CS I set up tubeless on my rear Jet+.

x2. I have CS on my Jet+ (front and rear) and I have maybe 400 miles on my trial run including competitive group rides over some bad pavement, and one circuit race.

All systems go so far, though I haven't had a flat of any kind to test sealability. Corner grip was great (circuit race had a 180-turn I was killing people on). No evidence of excessive wear or tears.

They seem at least comparable to the Supersonic in durability, and maybe better than the old Evo CX clinchers, which I thought were quite fragile.

I did notice one small issue I had from installation on the Jet+ - on one wheel I tightened down the stem nut so much that it deformed the carbon fairing just slightly. So some care is needed with the Jets on finding a balance between rock-solid stem seal and not deforming the fairing.

What kind of "nut"? I highly recommend something that has a cap-shaped spacer under it like the Silca tubeless valves (I think American Classic might have one too) to spread the load over a wider area.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I am using the Silva aero thing. I probably just went overboard, which I've been known to do.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Yeah, I am using the Silva aero thing. I probably just went overboard, which I've been known to do.

Are you using this?

https://silca.cc/...ers-with-speedshield
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
grumpier.mike wrote:

Actually very easy to install on the Firecresr. I was running a pair of the Corsa G+ tires before and they were almost too loose. I had a G+ blowout the other day on the rear and the bead was off the tire completely

That is slightly concerning. The reason I gave up on cotton-based clinchers in the first place is because they were repeatedly blowing off my Firecrest rims on hot and humid days. It never happened while racing, but I can only image if it did. The problem with the blowoff is that it goes flat almost instantaneously. The same thing was not happening with blown rubber tires and that is how I actually landed on the Supersonic way back in I think 2011

Ya I think the G+ will get saved for running on my Flo 30s. I had a latex tube in the wheel and everything had been fine for 2 or 3 weeks of riding. I was doing an interval on a slight uphill grade when the tire blew, so there was no excessive heat issue. My experience is that you know you have a bad latex install within the first hour of riding, so there wasn't an obvious installation error.

My theory is that between the loose tire/rim combo, the less well defined contour of the carbon rim bead, and the multiple inflation/partial deflation cycles of the latex tubes, the tube may have been able to start working its way under the tire. I have never had this issue running latex on an aluminum Flo or HED wheel (8 different wheels).
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [fastskiguy] [ In reply to ]
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fastskiguy wrote:
trail wrote:
Yeah, I am using the Silva aero thing. I probably just went overboard, which I've been known to do.

Are you using this?

https://silca.cc/...ers-with-speedshield

No, we're referring to these:
https://silca.cc/...e-kit-w-speed-shield

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
fastskiguy wrote:
trail wrote:
Yeah, I am using the Silva aero thing. I probably just went overboard, which I've been known to do.


Are you using this?

https://silca.cc/...ers-with-speedshield


No, we're referring to these:
https://silca.cc/...e-kit-w-speed-shield

Gotcha, thanks
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Frankly I would love some feedback from some everyday users. I have seen mixed reviews of the tire, but just like the Supersonic, I wonder if that is because people don't know to install it. From people that I trust to install correctly, aka Tom A, it seems to be ok.
I've been testing them by running one as a front tire in training (which includes some gravel and dirt), and I also ran one as a front tire in a 60mi road race with famously bad pavement (about 20% of the field flats out, maybe more). I've also been running one as a rear in TTs. This is all with tubes, and I've had zero incidents so far.

The reason I even tried this at all is that they appear to be pretty robust to me. Vittoria also claims they are fairly puncture proof -- rating the clincher version 9/10. I thought I would test that out. I think it's too early to say, and I would want to run one on the rear before declaring the experiment a success. However, so far it looks promising.
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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [lanierb] [ In reply to ]
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lanierb wrote:
Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Frankly I would love some feedback from some everyday users. I have seen mixed reviews of the tire, but just like the Supersonic, I wonder if that is because people don't know to install it. From people that I trust to install correctly, aka Tom A, it seems to be ok.

I've been testing them by running one as a front tire in training (which includes some gravel and dirt), and I also ran one as a front tire in a 60mi road race with famously bad pavement (about 20% of the field flats out, maybe more). I've also been running one as a rear in TTs. This is all with tubes, and I've had zero incidents so far.

The reason I even tried this at all is that they appear to be pretty robust to me. Vittoria also claims they are fairly puncture proof -- rating the clincher version 9/10. I thought I would test that out. I think it's too early to say, and I would want to run one on the rear before declaring the experiment a success. However, so far it looks promising.

Good to know. Thanks for the data point. I am going to start doing some testing soon as well and running these in training.


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Re: A2 Aero Data for Corsa Speed, Conti Supersonic and TT on HED JET+ Black [narcomoeba] [ In reply to ]
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narcomoeba wrote:
Well, I'm not an everyday user, but I have done one 50 mile test ride with them on a HED 6+/9+ set.

The first time I tried mounting that tire was very difficult. I will say I'm not very experienced mounting tires and it got a lot easier after the first.

I ran them with vittoria latex tubes and conti valve extenders with orange seal. They felt very fast to me. Planning to run them at 70.3 Santa Rosa now that I've seen this data.

You really need to watch the hed video, the tire bead needs to be centered in the rim valley in order to install these. Over and over people seem to miss this on Hed wheels.

I can mount them with my fingers as long as the tire bead is in the rim center.
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