Personally I would run subjectively easy for a few weeks and then do a LTHR/pace test.

That's what my plan is, to test around the end of October. just wondering if there's a compelling reason that I should do either the full LTHR or abbreviated LTHR test now. rather than wait.

(the abbreviated one is basically a warmup, then run for a few minutes at a pace you think you can hold for 30 minutes until your HR stabilizes. use that number as LTHR.)

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When I started the 80/20 plan, I took a recent 5k effort that I had performed, and entered it into their online calculator to find my running LTHR. For cycling, I just took on of the days that was in my plan that was a higher intensity day on the bike, and replaced the Z3 or Z4 efforts with a ramp test on Zwift to estimate my FTP. My zones have seemed pretty spot on so far. Good luck.

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- Jordan

My Strava

I wouldn't bother---the data won't be useful for very long (if at all). My HR is all kinds of messed up for the first few weeks after getting back after it. typically, its about 10-15 bpm HIGH during that first month. I always hit my MaxHR during that initial month pretty easily, and then never see it again for the rest of the year, except perhaps with some super-human effort.

Second, I don't like LTHR much for running, I prefer PACE...even with hills in the mix. HR is so dominated by external conditions that it doesn't really characterize training load / intensity well at all. For the same pace, I see about a 1bpm per degC change in HR above 15C (**). It doesn't take long to learn what "uphill pace" corresponds to your "level ground pace". The Graded Pace algorithms in TP or Strava give you a decent idea...and then just watching your pace while running your usual routes completes that picture.

ETA: I'm not really an 80/20 guy. But, I follow a BarryP structured run plan...which probably is consistent with the 80/20 concepts----mostly easy-ish aerobic, sometimes fast.

**ETA2: Of course, since you are in Halifax...maybe it never gets above 15C there. :-P Down here in Texas I've got 2 more months before the overnight low will get down to that.

I also picked up the book at the weekend - I'm only going to be doing the S&C stuff for the time being as I don't have any events for 2020 lined up yet, once I have a race or two in place I'll create my training schedule.

Until I start that though, I want to make sure my "starting points" are accurate - always had doubts concerning the accuracy of my FTP from Zwift and that my HR zones are set correctly, so I want to run a few tests and see if they give me similar results.

I think you're right to test near the end of October.

The only reason I see to test now is to practice the test so you know what kind of pace to expect in October.

I've been playing around with the 80/20 stuff a little bit over the last 3 weeks or so. I joined their subscription plan and plan on using it for the next year or so, then I'll reassess. I am just getting back into endurance training after a long break with prior endeavors in cycling and masters swimming due to kids/family/life in general. I had thought about doing the trainer road programs and really like their training platform for the bike stuff, but after doing a handful of workouts and looking at the plans, it was just waay too much intensity for me, especially just starting out. The 80/20 stuff seems like a good balance and there is enough hard stuff built in, especially as you move up through the levels that I have no doubt it will keep me building fitness over the course of a year.

Before I started any of the 80/20 stuff my CTL in training peaks was ~38, I'm at 49 now and after an end of season tri in 10 days I'm jumping in to the level 2 olympic plan which will bring me to the end of january and a predicted CTL of around 85. At that point I'm thinking I can do the level 3 plan which will bring me to the start of my season (end of may/early june). From there my training time opens up and I might give a try to the half distance plan to attempt a late season 70.3 race.

I personally have been using the run pace/bike power plan and think that is the easier of the run plans to use. I always disliked using HR for a performance metric because it just never seemed steady day to day, and also the lag makes shorter efforts a little harder to dial in. Pace and power are much easier. I have also had a hard time dialing in my LTHR. The last time I really was training hard as a cyclist, my LTHR was 175, now 12 years later it has changed for sure, maybe 8-10 beats lower, but I haven't done a hard test yet to get an idea of what it is. Using power makes that HR a little less important to track, honestly now with HRV on my watch looking at HR during a workout to determine how well rested I am isn't even that important since I'm trackng it constantly. I used to see a depressed HR towards the end of a hard block of training, but now I can see that dip in HRV much easier and get a better idea of how ready I am for a tough workout.

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I'm actually fine with working with HR, for a few reasons. 1 is that I don't see it as trying to hit specific numbers, I'm really more concerned with ranges. 2 - I think that HR and pace are useful under different scenarios. I like the idea of HR when training at lower intensities and it's more about central conditioning, heart and lung type of stuff. Under those scenarios, I want to use HR as a guide when it's hot out (it does get hot up here for about 4 days a year) because I'd ideally use that (and rpe) as a guide to tell me to slow down. Pace is more about higher intensities, which I'm not gonna be doing for a while.

Although this is a triathlon plan I've picked up, of course I'm totally ignoring the swimming workouts and plans and doing my own thing there. The prime motivator here is to build central fitness and manage my weight, in the hopes and expectations that they will cross over to swimming. I'm limited in my pool time, so I need to be creative about supplementing my 3 swims per week. If I improve triathlon performance, that's fine too, but it's really about swimming.

On a side note, I downloaded the zwift app and am giving it a little shot. It's terrible trying to run it off my phone, so I'll see if I can get it working on my shitty old laptop and cast it to the TV for tonight's ride. I'll give it to the end of the trial period, but I suspect I'll just go back to youtube music videos and Netflix.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Of course, the other issue with using pace, on my watch at least, is that it's kinda jumpy, I'm never quite sure if the displayed pace is what I'm actually running right now. I don't actually pay that much attention to it because of that.

A footpod would probably help immensely, but I don't have one of those yet...

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I was using TR last year and found it to be OK, but to be honest I didn't really want to be on a perpetual subscription model so I suspended my account after I injured my knee and haven't decided if I want to go back. If I do, it'll be for custom workouts, but it seems like most of the sessions in the 80/20 book are steady state enough that HR would work acceptably well. and for the ones that aren't, I can go off RPE.

I also find that lately I'm becoming more and more of an anti-tech guy when it comes to sports. I spend enough of my day looking at numbers on a screen, I kinda want training to get away from that a bit, you know. So I'm back to keeping a paper-based training log, using a paper-based plan, etc. Once I get my internal RPE calibrated a bit better, I might be ditching the watch for most training sessions. I have a TP and a Strava account, but I can't remember the last time I looked at them.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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I use HR as the ceiling for easy runs (for the reasons you mention) and then lap average pace for running intervals, which is not as jumpy.

Not sure if this will applies to you but since it's the off-season it might. As I was looking into the maintenance plan I emailed David Warden who is super responsive asking him what type of plan I should try. My goal was to try to buildup my bike fitness with a bike focused block for the next 3-4 months then slowly build up my run before beginning the 80/20 6 month IM program. He told me that the maintenance plan probably wasn't the best thing to build up FTP. Thought about doing the general phase of the HIM plan with min (2-3 runs/week) which he said could possibly work but could potentially be too much hours too for me. As a background, I am targeting IM Louisville next Oct (if it gets renewed).

Thanks. good to know that the authors are responsive - I might shoot them an email to see what they think.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Yep, a footpod makes a world of difference. GPS pace is super laggy, and subject to obstructions. Wrist mounted accelerometers are super noisy and subject to minor variations in armswing that result in wild changes in indicated pace. I have a garmin footpod paired to my 920, which I've configured to prefer the footpod for PACE.

I only use instantaneous pace when doing speed work. All other times, its lap-average pace.

As you say, the truth is that I use a tiered scheme of RPE, pace, and HR. I govern by RPE. As long as RPE checks with today's plan I run by pace (either as a ceiling on aerobic days, or target on threshold/speed days). Then I cross-check to HR---only really looking for abnormalities, though. But, I run in wildly varying conditions between cool-dry (20C/65% RH) indoor with fan, cool-humid (28C/95% RH)outdoor, hot-humid (40C/85% RH) outdoor. My RPE and Pace at 152 bpm is very different moving between those conditions. But, my RPE at a particular PACE doesn't change much except when I get up above 38C or so. Life in Texas, I guess.

Also, I'm training to (hopefully) set an open 10K PR in December. So, my goals are different too.

I’m loving it. About 3 weeks into an Olympic Level 3 plan, which I’m using as a bit of a build up before I jump into full IM plan. I’m using run pace/bike power and one day I’ll start swimming again.

I do keep a close eye on HR during my runs and I think it tracks pretty well with easy my HR zones would be - I started with run HR plan but switched it because it’s just easier to track for me.

Can’t give it all the credit but I am seeing my HR continue to trend down and stay low during Z1-2 efforts, and recovery sets are showing good improvement too. I came off a marathon in 3rd week of August but it was a terrible effort and basically just a long ugly training day, as i k ew going in I wasn’t prepped for it. But I think the 80/20 plan is continuing to push my fitness in the right way and I like the structure.

On the bike, I was literally at zero CTL and while I’m only a few weeks in I feel stronger and my pain tolerance is improving. Again, I like the workouts and the balance of hard to easy. That said my weakest workouts are steady state Z2, I just have a really hard time fitting there without change so I often do these as 9/1 intervals. They stress not worrying about perfection so I won’t :)

One thing I find is that runTSS always seems higher than planned. Is this telling me I’m actually running at a much higher intensity? Technically I guess but I feel really good and my pace:HR is continuing to improve so who knows.

You might be different, but i have noticed that a 30 minute effort will overestimate my lthr hr by almost 5 beats. Using my max hr my zones shifted down and I've been getting better responses to training than in the past.

Last year i focused on staying below 75% of max for endurance efforts and was really able to get in some consistent training, and this fall/winter trying to stick closer to 70%.

I’m baffled as to how these books sell. 80/20 or polarised training is literally the simplest training protocol I’ve ever come across. There’s so much free information out there about it.

Clearly you're so much smarter than the rest of us who've decided to buy the book.

Snark aside:

- the book is only $20 or so. That's 1 month of trainerroad, but I get access to it forever.
- time is money - the convenience factor of having a lot of information in one easy to access place is worth the $20 alone
- doing your own research is great, but it's also easy to miss details when doing your own, or to go down an erroneous path. It's useful to have a foundational reference source.
- I'm not an expert. having a reference which has been written by experts provides additional comfort that what I'm reading is worth my time and effort to implement.
- having permanent access to a number of pre-made plans for different target races and experience levels is worth it.
- as a bonus, the book has helpful guidance on how to create your own plan.
- I like reading physical books where I can, I find I can read more when holding a book than reading it off a screen.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Its a good book, it’s an easy read and a quick reference, and every workout is there. I agree with you.

It’s a simple hypothesis but creating the workouts and a long term plan is another thing for a lot of us. If you’re proficient at that then great.

And some of us just like to read.

I thought it was a good book.

It is a good book. I’ve read it twice and I flip through it often as a reference.

My experience was similar. I am very impressed with David’s accessibility and thoughtful responses. He went way beyond expectations in helping assess my fitness, goals, and select the best program for me. Because of this interaction, I start my first 80/20 plan tomorrow with a solid understanding of how to properly execute the sessions.

I’ve enjoyed learning about the program and am excited to see how my body responds.

Scott

I didn't get off to a great start on it last week, only one run. I did do a couple of rides though.

To try and keep on track, I've started using the workout planner in Garmin Connect and programmed in the next 2 weeks of workouts starting with week 1 (again), with a few modifications to fit my schedule. I swim M, Th, Su, so I've moved the rest day to Tuesday (which coincides with my wife's night off from kid duties) and then juggled the other workouts around those parameters. I'll see how that works for the next couple of weeks and then modify again if necessary.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly