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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [travis_lt] [ In reply to ]
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[/quote]This sums it up. If the pros didn't race Kona the media and triathlon industry coverage would disappear. No one gives a shit about watching a bunch of the non-best athletes in the sport race in Hawaii. If the pros weren't racing Kona, the void of a championship quality field would be filled very quickly by some other organization and the focus of the triathlon world would immediately shift there. The pros aren't what drives AG'ers to races it's the massive spectacle that they want to be apart of that drives them there and that spectacle is driven by the triathlon industry. The industry that is going to follow wherever the pros go. Kona would be nothing without the pro field and WTC would be begging them to come back if they all walked away and took their participation elsewhere.[/quote]
I think I agree. WTC needs the pros much more than they think they do. People don't do IM brand just because of a Kona broadcast on NBC that spends just as much time covering age groupers than the pros. I think very few people watch that broadcast and care about the pros. Those of us who care about the pro race watch it the day of, anyway.

I think if you drilled down to why someone picks IM over another, non-WTC choice, you'd get to the pros. Want the most hooplah? The pro sponsors create much of it. Want to race the best? People want to qualify for/race at Kona because it's the World Championships - if the pros did some other event and called THAT the World Championships, they'd take the sponsors and people would want to do that race/series. Want the "IM" stigma? It exists because of Kona, which only exists because the pros and their sponsors create that environment.


Chris Harris
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [fe_dad] [ In reply to ]
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fe_dad wrote:
This sums it up. If the pros didn't race Kona the media and triathlon industry coverage would disappear. No one gives a shit about watching a bunch of the non-best athletes in the sport race in Hawaii. If the pros weren't racing Kona, the void of a championship quality field would be filled very quickly by some other organization and the focus of the triathlon world would immediately shift there. The pros aren't what drives AG'ers to races it's the massive spectacle that they want to be apart of that drives them there and that spectacle is driven by the triathlon industry. The industry that is going to follow wherever the pros go. Kona would be nothing without the pro field and WTC would be begging them to come back if they all walked away and took their participation elsewhere.[/quote]

I think I agree. WTC needs the pros much more than they think they do. People don't do IM brand just because of a Kona broadcast on NBC that spends just as much time covering age groupers than the pros. I think very few people watch that broadcast and care about the pros. Those of us who care about the pro race watch it the day of, anyway.

I think if you drilled down to why someone picks IM over another, non-WTC choice, you'd get to the pros. Want the most hooplah? The pro sponsors create much of it. Want to race the best? People want to qualify for/race at Kona because it's the World Championships - if the pros did some other event and called THAT the World Championships, they'd take the sponsors and people would want to do that race/series. Want the "IM" stigma? It exists because of Kona, which only exists because the pros and their sponsors create that environment.[/quote]


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I think all of the above is true. However, as you point out, the people who are interested in all this are the amateur athletes who want to race an IM brand race, either to say they are an "Ironman" or to try to get to Kona. Unfortunately, the masses (a.k.a. TV audience) don't give a shit, and that's why prize purses are so low. Sure WTC could afford to pay a bit more, but they clearly need not do so to maintain a successful business formula. This whole thread should be a sub-thread of the Cry Like a Biatch thread.

PS where are all the pros coming out to say "hey, thanks for doing this!"?
Last edited by: Kay Serrar: Jul 15, 14 9:57
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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One thing could have stopped this whole mess, and his name is Lance Armstrong. Hell, the minute he said he "might" do Ironman (before he actually started) the big business wheels were turning. Trek and Nike had already started calling hotels in Kona and starting the process of booking all the rooms. NBC was even talking about LIVE coverage....it would have been full-on Tiger effect.

Instead, "they don't want an ex doper ruining their sport" if you even call racing for a couple thousand dollars a professional sport.

Yes, other factors kept this from happening, but I know nobody was sucking LA's rod more than Messik was for about 6 months before his ban came down. He knew it would have been huge, the top pros wanted it to happen (more money for them) but the AG's and bottom feeder pros didn't like it....so they can keep wearing their homemade Dopers Suck tshirts and racing 9 hours for chump change.

FYI...I do love this, and people are taking it much too seriously...TRS is just stirring the pot, and it is greatness! Yes, nobody besides the 20 idiots like myself that read this forum know, but you know at WTC corp they are worried what might happen if the prize gets large, and that makes it worth it.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:

I think all of the above is true. However, as you point out, the people who are interested in all this are the amateur athletes who want to race an IM brand race, either to say they are an "Ironman" or to try to get to Kona.


Whats interesting is that for someone like me, who will likely never be fast enough to get to Kona, the appeal of "Ironman" (WTC) itself is lost. Sure I did my first "full" at an IM race, and I enjoyed hearing Mike Reilly call my name. But since then when I wanted to do a second one, I thought about all the expense and hassle of the WTC races and said "screw it" and raced Challenge AC instead. In fact none of the HIMs I am doing this year are WTC races either. I seem to inadvertently be biasing towards independents and other players like Rev3 and Challenge precisely because they are not like the WTC. I get to just go race instead of deal with all the "stuff" that goes on around WTC races. Not that I have anything in particular against the WTC, but their style of race production is over the top for me. Will I do another WTC race? Sure if it fits in my schedule, but I tend now to look towards the other brands equally.

For the record, this thread has provided me with at least $10 worth of entertainment so I kicked into the pot too :D
Last edited by: noofus: Jul 15, 14 10:35
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [BonusTri] [ In reply to ]
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BonusTri wrote:
Sorry dude, I'm calling bull shit. People that make 300K a year don't brag about it #1. And, #2 bull shit is companies don't want to pay employees over $250 a year because of the Alt Min tax. They don't want 40% over $250 going to the Government.

You're a douche bag.

...a db that can't swim a 2.4 in under 2:20.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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TheRealStarky wrote:
Otherwise, I agree 100% with everything you said. Class move by Dibens. Didn't know about that.

FWIW, Dibens wasn't the only pro to do it, Kelly Williamson did it at Steelhead 70.3 as well(all the female pros discussed it ahead of time even) and there were other stories throughout the summer of it being done at some other races, a lot of the pros pretty much had the mindset that year that if you were winning by a lot you would stop at the line and wait, and it happened often enough that WTC got rid of the rule because it was happening and they were looking like greedy fools.

Let's also not forget the tie situation a year or two ago with Matty Reed and one other pro, I forget who? But WTC I think was going to pay both of them for second place or something less than 1st place prize money for both. Until there was a lot of public outcry on social media by pros and age groupers, then they decided on paying them both the first place prize money.

These are all examples that WTC does value their pros a little bit, or at least has to look like they value them.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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TRS -

have you gotten any traction on twitter with the pros? I believe I've recently seen you tweeting with some of the bigger names on the women's side (re: separate starts for pro women to limit drafting). Wondering if you've seen this making the rounds with any of them? What's the feedback?

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@adamwfurlong
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [afurlong] [ In reply to ]
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afurlong wrote:
TRS -

have you gotten any traction on twitter with the pros? I believe I've recently seen you tweeting with some of the bigger names on the women's side (re: separate starts for pro women to limit drafting). Wondering if you've seen this making the rounds with any of them? What's the feedback?

Marinda Carfrae re-tweeted Dark Mark without comment. Otherwise, it's been crickets among the top marquee pros and crickets for the entire triathlon media.

James Hadley, AJ Baucco and a few journeymen pros have supported us publicly, and I've received a handful of private messages of support.

To be honest, I am a little disappointed in silence. That said, I understand that they're probably afraid to speak out.

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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [afurlong] [ In reply to ]
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This is hands down the best ST thread I've seen in years, some of you guys ought to put in a resume to write for Fallon or Conan. Will look forward to finding the TRS awards venue at LP. After WTC's move in 2012 to a shoebox stage in the skating oval on Sunday morning and stale finger food and juice, the bar is pretty low to have a kick ass awards ceremony in 2014 with TRS!
Carry on gentlemen, my donation is in fine hands.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]
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ZackCapets wrote:
Yeah, the Big-S scandal is not really relevant. Standing at the finish line to make a statement about the state of the pro prize purse payout doesn't seem all that objectionable to me. If you have a reasonable margin over the next competitor, be it 1 minute or 5 minutes and you camp out at the finish line to take advantage of a larger prize purse available to a lower-placing finisher, I don't see that as being greedy. Expecting to be compensated for work you've done is not unreasonable. If some aspect of the payment system is unfair, or unreasonable and you're not in a position to negotiate it, sometimes a bit of "civil disobedience" is in order. We saw it happen in 2010 at 70.3 Boulder, when Dibens waited 5 min within feet of the finish line so that others could get paid. The difference there is that she waited so that others could get more, whereas someone waiting on the 7th place line would be seeking more money for themselves, but the principle is still there.

Pro triathletes are not in a position to negotiate for themselves with WTC. They're not organized, they don't all want the same things (some pros were actually in favor of the time rule for prize purses). To even get a discussion started would require the kind of shenanigans that TRS, DarkMark, and Pay10Deep are undertaking, and the value of their work would be amplified by a higher-finishing pro eschewing the WTC prize purse in favor of a potentially larger TRS purse.

Maybe I'm taking this too seriously for something that got started by a parody account, but there's a very real aspect to all this. To amateurs it's just a stunt, but I can't imagine there are too many pros that would turn down cold hard cash when they otherwise would have gotten nothing except a pat on the back.

I understand your argument and having friends that race professional I see the shoes that they are in. However, just because WTC rakes in so much money does not mean they need to increase their purse. Athletes need to give them a reason and prove they are worth more then what they are being paid. Having so many athletes chase Kona points and shy away from other series that pay out more has a profound statement to Messick. In his eyes he knows deep down that pros will race WTC races with the prize money as is, because Kona points and exposure seem to be of higher value then prize money.

If that is not the case then why did only 4 pro females earn prize money when it paid 10 deep at Challenge Atlantic City? Why didn't more pros flock to Rev 3 when they paid out each race and had a major series bonus, in fact ask Eric Linkeman how much he made just off Rev 3 in the past year. Lifetime has a $50,000 bonus pay out, yet very few athletes, especially those that complain about prize money never race with them.

What surprises me most is that so many pro athletes stick with WTC and race their 70.3 and Ironman races. Those take the most time to recover from, you race less and they in general pay the least amount of money.

Man, I wish back in the day when I was a bartender and waited tables on high-end execs that I would've demanded more money then they gave me because they just have more money.

I get what TRS is trying to do with this publicity stunt, but really in the end its not the best way to try and change anything, however, I will give him props for making an effort. But I cannot afford to pay $10 for the pros after all I am not a millionaire and am trying to make it in life my own way. I will however donate to those that really need help (see. World Bicycle Relief, etc.).
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [bcagle25] [ In reply to ]
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bcagle25 wrote:
ZackCapets wrote:
Donated.

I would love to see the TRS prize purse exceed the WTC purse and watch athletes hang out at the finish line waiting for some sucker to cross the line before them and take less money. That kind of behavior seems to have sent a message to WTC in the past (a la the time cut-off for payouts that got abolished after a blow-out winner would walk it in so that more folks could get paid).

If I was a sponsor for that athlete I would drop them in a heartbeat that is not good brand representation. Sacrificing performance for a few bucks shows a lot. I know a point is trying to be made, but that is NOT the way to do it.

A few dollars? Right now it's equal to 6th place and will probably be much higher by raceday. And have you researched the pros that actually finished 7th recently at LP? Not exactly a murderers row. Sponsors should just be happy they finish in the top 10. And seriously what's the difference between finishing 6 or 7, aside from the prize purse? And you would think a sponsor would be happy with this being done. They are supporting an athlete and the athlete is just making a statement to their federation that the should take care of their athletes a little bit better.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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TheRealStarky wrote:
afurlong wrote:
TRS -

have you gotten any traction on twitter with the pros? I believe I've recently seen you tweeting with some of the bigger names on the women's side (re: separate starts for pro women to limit drafting). Wondering if you've seen this making the rounds with any of them? What's the feedback?


Marinda Carfrae re-tweeted Dark Mark without comment. Otherwise, it's been crickets among the top marquee pros and crickets for the entire triathlon media.

James Hadley, AJ Baucco and a few journeymen pros have supported us publicly, and I've received a handful of private messages of support.

To be honest, I am a little disappointed in silence. That said, I understand that they're probably afraid to speak out.

This exactly, it would violate the third example of unacceptable behavior that will result in penalties. "Unprofessional public communications in person or via any media dialogue."
Originally from: http://www.ironman.com/...t.aspx#ixzz37YwcgDcO
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in - made my donation. Hope this becomes an annual tradition at LP. Racing in 2015 but wish I was going to be there this year.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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While I think this is the right message, and acknowledge it's really the first big move in a larger & broader effort - the scope needs to be expanded.

Sponsors - both of races & the pros need to be brought in to advocate for the expansion of the sport, purses, etc. High profile pros aren't going to risk upsetting sponsors, since these are the primary sources of income for sponsor bonuses - either performance or appearance based. The biggest way to get pros on board is for sponsors to treat performance bonuses for non WTC events equitably with IM podiums.

Likewise - Sponsors aren't going to move until they believe that there are viable replacements/ events as championship venues to display their products (Challenge is getting there, Lifetime/ HITS for shorter distance races, some one-offs (Alcatraz, Abu Dhabi, Wildflower). Sponsors are looking for a return on their investment, and they likely view (I'm generalizing) the end -consumer as a dumb/ignorant individual who will open the wallet to buy the gear that Rapp/ O'Donnell/ Potts/ Macca/ Crowie etc wore to the podium @ whichever IM or 70.3. IM's participation #'s likely drive this assumption.

As a competitive age grouper - I race WTC events b/c I want to race against the best & qualify for a "true" world championship. Granted, most age groupers aren't racing for Kona slots, so they maybe shouldn't have an as strong as preferences as to where they race, but they do.FWIW - if another organization is able to build a comparable world championship structure, I'd look to race with them too.

Overall - it's not a straightforward problem/ answer. Yes, WTC makes $$, but that pursuit outright doesn't make them evil. Challenge, IMG, Rev 3 are all for-profit companies and want to make $$ too. Unfortunately for Pros - the main source of revenue in this sport is age group participants and not spectators, which not only makes it very challenging to directly measure the value they bring, but also maintains a status quo that's in the event owners' favor.

I think purses need to be bigger & deeper, but I also think there are a lot of pros on the periphery who are better off with a day job as their primary source of income. I don't think we (as a sport) want to cater to a diluted professional field. Although right now we're not catering a concentrated field either.

Enough pontification. I'd sent in some of my own spare change for the cause.

Thoughts on being an Urban Triathlete
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [screamin] [ In reply to ]
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screamin wrote:
One thing could have stopped this whole mess, and his name is Lance Armstrong. Hell, the minute he said he "might" do Ironman (before he actually started) the big business wheels were turning. Trek and Nike had already started calling hotels in Kona and starting the process of booking all the rooms. NBC was even talking about LIVE coverage....it would have been full-on Tiger effect.

Instead, "they don't want an ex doper ruining their sport" if you even call racing for a couple thousand dollars a professional sport.

No, no, no.

The only people that would have made money off Lance, were Lance, his sponsors, and the WTC. It would not have done jack for the regular pro athlete.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
screamin wrote:
One thing could have stopped this whole mess, and his name is Lance Armstrong. Hell, the minute he said he "might" do Ironman (before he actually started) the big business wheels were turning. Trek and Nike had already started calling hotels in Kona and starting the process of booking all the rooms. NBC was even talking about LIVE coverage....it would have been full-on Tiger effect.

Instead, "they don't want an ex doper ruining their sport" if you even call racing for a couple thousand dollars a professional sport.


No, no, no.

The only people that would have made money off Lance, were Lance, his sponsors, and the WTC. It would not have done jack for the regular pro athlete.

Feel free to continue hating LA, but the ignorance of that response is astounding.

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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri wrote:

A few dollars? Right now it's equal to 6th place and will probably be much higher by raceday. And have you researched the pros that actually finished 7th recently at LP? Not exactly a murderers row. Sponsors should just be happy they finish in the top 10. And seriously what's the difference between finishing 6 or 7, aside from the prize purse? And you would think a sponsor would be happy with this being done. They are supporting an athlete and the athlete is just making a statement to their federation that the should take care of their athletes a little bit better.

Actually its between 3rd and 4th place money right now...another $385 donated and it'll be equal to 3rd.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:

PS where are all the pros coming out to say "hey, thanks for doing this!"?

I'm expecting them to buy me a beer when they see me running with my high altitude straw. Or at the very least, sign my Gluten Tolerant bracelet. I'll buy a second one if all their names don't fit.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [rhys] [ In reply to ]
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rhys wrote:
WTC will have champion caliber races with larger pro prize purses next year. It will read a good story. But their pro prize purse bucket will remain flat I suspect. Instead of $XXXXXX across 50 races it will be same across 20. Andrew CEO hinted at that with Babbitt on Competitor radio.

That would make tons of sense. Most AGers have no idea, nor do they care what pro will be at the IM they sign up for. But it would be nice if the top pros could make a reasonable living and this would be a great way to have it happen.

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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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I have not read thru all of the posts, but has the thought of WTC putting repercussions on 7th place for accepting prize money been brought up. If they are truly sabotaging your moves, this could be their counter.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [SAMSON] [ In reply to ]
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SAMSON wrote:
I have not read thru all of the posts, but has the thought of WTC putting repercussions on 7th place for accepting prize money been brought up. If they are truly sabotaging your moves, this could be their counter.

Unless there is something specifically in the rules (I don't know here), that prevents them from accepting gifts from third parties, I don't see how they can really do anything about it.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [TheRealStarky] [ In reply to ]
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i think i know why age-groupers don't care about pros, but i was musing about why pros haven't already bailed on the wtc.

maybe it is as though one company bought the nhl, and the stanley cup. hockey players dream of the cup their whole lives, so it's the nhl where they want to play. slowly, over time, the new owner depresses wages, removes benefits, etc. but the players keep coming to the league, even though rival leagues spring up. because of the cup.

for wtc, it is kona. and doubtless they've locked down a zillion ancillary barriers to entry to do another big tri in kona.

i'm highly sympathetic to the need for long course pros to have better conditions. though we all know the big leagues in tri is itu. so either pros need to have a brand new feb 18 in 2015 and pick a new place for the best to gather and compete, or get some control over what happens in kona.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [noofus] [ In reply to ]
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Most rule books have the disclaimer they can change at race directors discretion.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [SAMSON] [ In reply to ]
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SAMSON wrote:
I have not read thru all of the posts, but has the thought of WTC putting repercussions on 7th place for accepting prize money been brought up. If they are truly sabotaging your moves, this could be their counter.

Fine, those that finish 7th will become #sponsored by Team TRS...call it what you want, WTC can't do shit.
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Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [SAMSON] [ In reply to ]
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WTC hasn't even published the pro start list for IMLP and it's less than two weeks out.
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