Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tucktri wrote:
The want to see the elite do it.

And please work on your spelling. Thanks

Physician, heal thy self.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The human interest side of Kona is what makes the casual "fan" tune in or more accurately, not change the channel. People that tune in to see who won, and how they did it are going to tune in regardless.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
NordicSkier wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
I'm sure they're all real super people an' all, but the fact that I've never heard of a single one of these athletes perhaps helps to explain why WTC only pays 6 deep


Or you haven't heard of them because there is no money in long course triathlon.

Why should anyone have heard of a 9:10 IM finisher? It's like saying why don't you know about the 2:28 male marathoner?

The fact that this is the standard of "professional" shows just how weak IM pro racing is and why there is deservedly little prize money.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A few Ironman winners on this list FYI. Not that it means anything to your point. Just letting you know in case it hadn't yet been posted.

Swimmer
http://www.usprotri.com/LAMASTRA.html
http://www.bodyphyxinternational.com
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
There is a big difference between random number 1437 and Apolo Ohno at Kona. People are interested in how the celebrities do because thy feel like they know about them.

I actually thought that over the last couple of years the coverage has been signifcantly more focused on the pros than the age groupers or special interest stories. The more that happens and the more pros show up on their TV (even if it is for chocolate milk) the more people will begin to recognize who these athletes are. Then maybe they begin to take some interest in what they do. Look at the World Cup. Ten years ago soccer was significantly less popular in terms of viewership in the US. Broadcast every game of the World Cup for three tournaments, and this year you saw many more people start to take an interest. Social media mentions were through the roof, not just when the US played, but throughout the tournament. People must have been watching. It won't happen overnight, but with continued focus on pros and if sponsors use them to increase exposure, you could see an increase in popularity over time.

Personally, I'd rather watch coverage of an Ironman than any college football game. I'd rather ride my trainer for five hours, staring directly at my basement wall than watch any football game actually.

____________________________________________________

Instagram | Team Kiwami North America | Nuun
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [kny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
kny wrote:
I don't know. And, you could be right. My gut says that WTC needs Kona to be the de facto IM World Championship and needs the best pros in the world to want to be there. Which it has. Would Kona have the same appeal to sponsors and NBC if it had no pros? Or would Kona show no real detrimental effect if it had no pros, as IMLP and IMCDA showed no real detrimental effect the years it had no pro field? I don't know. I'd love to see pros boycott for a year so we could find out.

I showed the McCormack / Raelert battle / drama from IMH 2010 on a big screen at a general meeting of my place of employment...you could have heard a pin drop when I stopped the tape (not because people were sleeping). There was a general interest there and an amazement at the distances involved. They had no idea that the human body was capable of such performance...needless to say no triathletes in the room. Definitely value there...especially since it was for the "world championship."
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [urbantriathlete] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've been reading and watching along an trying not to get drawn into this. But seriously, the whole triathlon industry is just a cartel, seriously. Yes, there are some standout businesses, but they are few and far between. No one pays much, because they don't want to break ranks. Right now you can get rent-a-pro for almost nothing.

Watch the panels at events and conferences, the pro's show up looking like sandwich boards. It's what they feel they have to do for their sponsors. If there are industry "business" people on the same panel, they'll be dressed business casual, or even in suits. How is there any difference? They are both getting paid by the same company. The difference is the pro's are treated as disposable assets, if one doesn't conform, wait 5-minutes and another will come along.

If bike company A offers an athlete too much, next up, bike company b will have to pay more, which means the following year, company A will have to pay even more. No one cares about Pro's? Really, try telling that to all the endemic companies that use the pro's in adverts in the magazines... which are equally part of the problem. Thousands of age groupers are not going to start wearing pointy hats and socks without feet because they saw a picture of a random age grouper doing it(Actually, maybe they would :)).

Until the pro's realize they are part of the problem, and stop selling themselves short, things will never change. A union just won't cut it. Most of the sports that have effective Unions are the ones that have effective teams. Teams are made up of team players, they are not all type-A quarter backs, goal scorers, and 100m Sprinters. What needs to happen is an ongoing effort to show the nonsense of the current position and to continue to educate the athletes that they can do better.

The WTC is small fry when it comes to professional sport, sure its a big deal in the triathlon world, but its still small fry. Until and unless the realize they can make much more money by sharing the success and helping make other people successful, and go out of their way to make some superstar athletes, they'll stay small fry. $45 million a year isn't bad, but unless and until they keep finding a way to grow their income, their credit rating will be hit, the interest on their $220 million loan to Providence Equity will cost them more and things could quickly go down hill. They have a limited ability to add races, IM racing is just too disruptive and hard to stage. A few of the races can take more competitors, but not many. They will have to work hard in the rest of the world to create the same American style cult of death participation, and thus new races. Also, the more races and competitors they have, the more risk they incur, dead people in swims isn't great publicity.

The WTC could easily make the pro's into a more marketable, more profitable resource, they don't because they don't need to. If the pro's got more money from the WTC, they would't have to take such shoddy deals from bike, shoe, wetsuit, clothing and food companies. It's a cartel, either explicit or implicit, no copany pay more than they have to, if they all keep payouts low, they all can.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Paul Lantinga] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, he's definitely done commentary. I have al the Kona's going back to '98, but it wasn't in the last 5-years, if I had to guess, back around 2003.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Lets remember the Kona TV show is pretty much only in the US these days. Could someone confirm the arrangement, doesn't the WTC pay for the slot, production etc. and then shares the commercial revenue with NBC?

The reason its such a big deal in America, People want to watch the winners, but they really want to see people on the edge, who sometimes fall off... To a point there are a few other countries but most, don't. Kona is great TV because people fail in unscripted ways. Sure, everyone likes a success, everyone wants to see the underdog win out. Secretly though, they want to see people fail. Isn't that why NASCAR is so popular?
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlMwc1c0HRQ


Thank you. Finally, someone comes out, cuts through the BS, and says it like it is...

I've been mulling over writing a new article, that touches on a lot of the same points.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
and he's really not that good of a commentator. It's like when Pat Summerall went off the rails for the NFL. Eventually, when your eyesight goes, or you don't know who the players/riders are, it's time to move on.

trimark wrote:
Yes, he's definitely done commentary. I have al the Kona's going back to '98, but it wasn't in the last 5-years, if I had to guess, back around 2003.

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio Coaching and Bike Fitting
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits |
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
err, I know its not good form to comment on your own post, but screw it, this is slowtwitch, what's good form? ( I know, it follows a good fitting, where is slowman when you need him?)

When I said "Until the pro's realize they are part of the problem", I didn't mean to alienate the whole world of pro triathletes or infer they were dumb.

Really given most of them are between 25-35, you can't expect them to be the worlds best at business. I know I wasn't at their age. My point was more that they need to realize that apart form a small number, they have not made it when they get a pro license, or buy into the WTC indentured slave program/license, they've effectively become bottom feeders of the sport. The urban dictionary definition is pretty much bang on, except the slacker bit. http://www.urbandictionary.com/...term=bottom%20feeder

Scott, Tinley, et al were lucky, I'm sure they got exploited but it wasn't an industry in their day. Now people have budgets, targets and objectives to NOT pay pro's what they earn.

As we all know, or should, the real problem with Ironman racing and the pro athlete, is the sheer limits it puts on your body, and the demands for training. This severely limits the amount of time they can be putting themselves out there, doing the networking, etc. It also means they are likely to fail, get injured, miss a bike group after getting beat up on the swim, and its game over for their chance of winning. This makes them an easy target to under pay, because next year, or even later this year, someone else will be the new kid.

The WTC needs to start a proper regional development program and competition and put money into marketing the athletes that do well locally. Make them local heroes, not global nomads. The athletes need to stop accepting cheap deals, no free shit, manage their image, control the use of it, and drive their prices up. Focus on quality sponsors not quantity. Be the best brand ambassador you can be, you are the brand, not a sandwich board and certainly NOT Ironman.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
The WTC needs to start a proper regional development program and competition and put money into marketing the athletes that do well locally

WTC sort of has a feeder program in place. It's called the ITU. When you look at the start list at just about any global IM, about 60% maybe more of the field on the men's side and 30% on the women's side are former ITU racers of some caliber. If it wasn't for the ITU, IM racing might have pro fields half the size, and for sure the fields would be slower.

Why would WTC need to spend the time/moeny/effort to develop pro's. They already have a huge feeder system in place with the club program. You've got entire clubs who's only goal is get as many people into WTC races to earn points for their clubs.

I get what you are saying about be your own brand etc. But until pro's can band together and come to the table with a large share of voice, better negotiating power, have a more solid voice you might as well put 50 cats into a very large warehouse and try to herd them with 1 arm tied behind your back. Some pro's have tried, at least two serious attempts actually, to form some sort of a union. But you had pro's who were raking it in who wouldn't take a haircut to grow the pie, you had pro's who wouldn't agree to boycott races to drive up awareness for their causes. Not just BOP pro's either, but pro's who could have made changes bc of who they are. It's very much a mainly all about me with little regard to growing the collective pie. it's about getting as much as possible now vs taking less now to get even more later.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter

Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Well said. Pro Triathletes are probably going to have to grow their value themselves, maybe even outside of the sport.

Unless they can start their own race series/association, they're going to have to take matters into their own hands. WTC isn't going to up purses simply because they want to help.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
desert dude wrote:
Why would WTC need to spend the time/moeny/effort to develop pro's. They already have a huge feeder system in place with the club program. You've got entire clubs who's only goal is get as many people into WTC races to earn points for their clubs.

You are, with all due respect missing my point. If the WTC want to break out of being a smalltime professional sports company and join the ranks of the mega sports, the only way they can do this is by sharing the benefit. It is in their best interest to make stars.

I agree they may not see their business future that way. They Providence Equity, may simply see an end point to the growth, market saturation, filling races with age groupers, developing race delivery services that minimize cost and maximize profit and at which point they'll either unload the WTC as a business to another company(unikely) or go for some form of public listing(possible). If thats their future, they don't need successful pro's, the status quo is just fine and clubs here in the USA can go on producing averagely successful ironman athletes.

I would suggest though that while Scott, Tinley, Allen et al all legends in the USA, along with Fuhr, Moss, Newby Fraser same on the womens front, all all North American legends, while they'll never be forgotten, and Ironman distance racing is established in the US,the same isn't rue in many other countries, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Germany, Japan are a few, the same isn't true in most of the rest of the world. ITU racing could be seen as a feeder program for pro Ironman, but for the most part, its athletes who no longer can win at ITU. The ITU racing style, the excitement(especially in the relay format, last w/e Hamburg race was the best triathlon TV I've seen in a long time) will constantly attract more youngsters. Again, if the WTC has a business plan based on the above, thats a non-issue.

If however they want to grow beyond that they've got to develop regional heroes, people who people can aspire to be. The Club system outside the USA is not focused on Ironman, mostly for the sparsity in races. My former club, Tri-Force, yearly takes a good squad to Ironman Austria. However, Austria, not withstanding it's closer to London that Dallas is to New York is problematical in many ways, as is travelling overseas to any race.

So, lets agree, if the WTC wants to be globally as successful as it has been in the USA, it does indeed need to develop regional professionals. The world is no longer ready and willing to accept all concurring Ameican pro's and legends.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [BonusTri] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BonusTri wrote:
Well said. Pro Triathletes are probably going to have to grow their value themselves, maybe even outside of the sport.

Unless they can start their own race series/association, they're going to have to take matters into their own hands. WTC isn't going to up purses simply because they want to help.

What does that mean, outside the sport?

Do you mean get non-endemic sponsors? Yes, I agree. However, the conditions to do this need to be there, otherwise it is limited to a few who are already known.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
you I think, with all due respect, are missing his.

there are active barriers to organizing, not the least of which are the athletes themselves - both actively and passively.

trimark wrote:
desert dude wrote:
Why would WTC need to spend the time/moeny/effort to develop pro's. They already have a huge feeder system in place with the club program. You've got entire clubs who's only goal is get as many people into WTC races to earn points for their clubs.


You are, with all due respect missing my point. If the WTC want to break out of being a smalltime professional sports company and join the ranks of the mega sports, the only way they can do this is by sharing the benefit. It is in their best interest to make stars.

I agree they may not see their business future that way. They Providence Equity, may simply see an end point to the growth, market saturation, filling races with age groupers, developing race delivery services that minimize cost and maximize profit and at which point they'll either unload the WTC as a business to another company(unikely) or go for some form of public listing(possible). If thats their future, they don't need successful pro's, the status quo is just fine and clubs here in the USA can go on producing averagely successful ironman athletes.

I would suggest though that while Scott, Tinley, Allen et al all legends in the USA, along with Fuhr, Moss, Newby Fraser same on the womens front, all all North American legends, while they'll never be forgotten, and Ironman distance racing is established in the US,the same isn't rue in many other countries, Australia, New Zealand, UK, Germany, Japan are a few, the same isn't true in most of the rest of the world. ITU racing could be seen as a feeder program for pro Ironman, but for the most part, its athletes who no longer can win at ITU. The ITU racing style, the excitement(especially in the relay format, last w/e Hamburg race was the best triathlon TV I've seen in a long time) will constantly attract more youngsters. Again, if the WTC has a business plan based on the above, thats a non-issue.

If however they want to grow beyond that they've got to develop regional heroes, people who people can aspire to be. The Club system outside the USA is not focused on Ironman, mostly for the sparsity in races. My former club, Tri-Force, yearly takes a good squad to Ironman Austria. However, Austria, not withstanding it's closer to London that Dallas is to New York is problematical in many ways, as is travelling overseas to any race.

So, lets agree, if the WTC wants to be globally as successful as it has been in the USA, it does indeed need to develop regional professionals. The world is no longer ready and willing to accept all concurring Ameican pro's and legends.

Eric Reid
AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio Coaching and Bike Fitting
Chapel Hill, NC
Aerodynamic Optimized Bike Fitting, Retul Pre-Purchase Bike Fitting, USAT Level 1 Triathlon Coaching, Nutrition
Ask me: Scody Optimized Speed Suits | CeramicSpeed Oversized Pulley Systems | HUUB Skinsuits and Wetsuits |
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If the WTC want to break out of being a smalltime professional sports company and join the ranks of the mega sports, the only way they can do this is by sharing the benefit.

__________

The only way you can become a mega sports and then have pro's making tons of money is TV Revenue. It aint happening with IM racing, and that's no fault of the pros', WTC, etc. IM racing just isn't going to ever become a sport that is shown on TV. That's the ONLY way a sport can ever join the mega ranks.

So with that said, when you already are going to have limited money, it's every man for themselves (which is why I think you see the pros' doing a poor job of banding together and thinking "long term").

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
The only way you can become a mega sports and then have pro's making tons of money is TV Revenue. It aint happening with IM racing, and that's no fault of the pros', WTC, etc. IM racing just isn't going to ever become a sport that is shown on TV. That's the ONLY way a sport can ever join the mega ranks.

To misquote Shaw, Kennedy et al. some people see the way things are and thats all, some people see the way things could be and say why not. TV, by which you mean, I assume, US broadcast TV and US style cable is already on the decline, dominated by monopolies, based on a dying paradigm. We broadcast, you watch on our schedule. The future surely won't be like this. micro payments, network bandwidth, mobile devices, global audience potential.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Get back to me when Kona is on TV, with same day coverage, and I'll buy you a beer. Cute response but kinda yawner.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
Get back to me when Kona is on TV, with same day coverage, and I'll buy you a beer. Cute response but kinda yawner.

Really, thats the best you've got? In 5-years time reliable, fast Internet access via mobile, the ability to replay segments of the race, to get reatime statistics, to follow coverage of specific athletes provided by drones, and you want to sit on the couch for 8+ hours eating potato chips and drinking beer.

Yup, as I said, dying paradigm, cute or otherwise.
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [trimark] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I want to know how all that turns the sport into a mega sport, that you say is missing.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BDoughtie wrote:
I want to know how all that turns the sport into a mega sport, that you say is missing.

Triathlon, and especially Ironman, will NEVER be a big sport. It's niche and will remain that way forever. Ironman tried the big advertiser route and it burned out years ago. The ship has sailed on that.

-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, Gatorade Smith Optics, SpeedFil, ENVE Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That's my point. We are talking about drones for coverage and I'm thinking, where is money coming from that.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: 7th is the new 1st: IRONMAN LAKE PLACID PRIZE PURSE [BDoughtie] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'm sitting here watching the Tour from this morning and my girlfriend is flipping through some cooking magazine. She said "Why does everything have to say gluten free in here?" I responded "Don't make that shit for me. I'm gluten tolerant."

____________________________________________________

Instagram | Team Kiwami North America | Nuun
Quote Reply

Prev Next