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70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days
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Curious if you had 25 days to go from 70.3 fitness to running your first marathon, how would you program?

I don't have a lot of racing experience and am just learning how to taper properly. I feel like I don't want to go deep past 14 days out. I'll probably continue to swim and bike some, but it's not a priority other than when it can augment the running training for the next month.

My last 5k was 20:03 on a track. I am approximating my marathon pace at around 7:50 / mile. My longest run in preparation for St. George was 16 miles and that was about two weeks ago. I'd like to get a 20 miler in on October 2nd, that would be 2 weeks from race day. So probably an 18 miler on the 25th of September, this upcoming Saturday.

Anybody have any tips for how to squeeze the most out of the next 3.5 weeks?
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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I did the reverse as my first HIM was shortly after my first marathon.[/url]

I don't have specific training advice other than the opinion it is too late to change your training, but you can still screw up the marathon itself.

I would sit with a pace group for as long as you can stand at least until the halfway point. Ideally a 3:25 pace group, but sit with a 3:30.

I've never had a marathon(69 mary/ultra finishes) that I wished I had started out faster!

I think you could be a bit faster as I did 7:30 pace at almost the exact same 5k pace although mine was roads.

Best of luck.

Swim - Bike - Run the rest is just clothing changes.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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I've done that before. In fact, am planning to go from a 70.3 on 12/05 to a marathon on 01/15 - a bit longer than 25 days, but not too dissimilar in approach. I am including long runs into my 70.3 training, will take about 5 days of rest after the 70.3 and then resume with about 4 weeks of focused marathon training at 50-55mpw.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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I just did a marathon 3 weeks after a 70.3. I had done two approx 18 mile runs before the 70.3. I did a 20 mile run the weekend after and then started a taper. I had been averaging a little less than 40 miles/ week. I felt I needed to get in a 20 mile run, though, only 2 weeks out was cutting it close for me especially given my average weekly mileage.

FYI - I’ve decided a marathon is much tougher than a 70.3.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [IanH] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the responses fellas.

I'm on 4 days rest right now, getting out in the morning for my first post-race ride. I actually went pretty easy in the race, so my body feels pretty good.

I think anything can be difficult if you go 100%. After the first 70.3 I was ruined, but I emptied the tank the last 4 miles. Hoping to do the same for the marathon.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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18 miler on Saturday went well, super smooth although the soreness kicked in late that evening sitting in the movie theater for date night.

Just kicked off a 14 mile temp run that felt great and have the last long run, a 20 miler, on this upcoming Saturday.

You guys have been super helpful, so I thought I would ask about pacing strategy...

Anyone ever tried a 2:1 hard threshold: rest (30 to 45 seconds off) kind of strategy?

At 8 minute miles my HR stays around 145 beats then it jumps to about 160 and will stay there down to threshold pace which seems like it's about 7:15. So I was thinking of experimenting next time out with trying a fast mile, medium mile, slower mile type rotation. I don't know if that makes you more likely to blow up than a simple negative split strategy? Thoughts?
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you have the right approach, OP. I'm doing Boston, which is 3 weeks after 70.3 Worlds. Definitely not enough time for any real training. I was already signed up so I'm just gonna go out & see what happens. You have an extra week so could get in two quality long runs. I did 22 8 days after the 70.3. Did an 8 mile tempo earlier this week & a 15 miler mid-week. Nothing more I can do but the body should at least be able to handle the distance.

I wouldn't approach your marathon like a workout. Even pacing or a slight negative split is pretty proven in marathon racing. Only exception maybe on a course like Boston or something with significantly more downhill in the earlier miles. It's ok to back off goal pace a little during the middle of a race so that you don't blow up. I wouldn't advocate playing with such a big range of paces in a race.
Last edited by: dcpinsonn: Oct 1, 21 9:38
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [dcpinsonn] [ In reply to ]
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dcpinsonn wrote:
Sounds like you have the right approach, OP. I'm doing Boston, which is 3 weeks after 70.3 Worlds. Definitely not enough time for any real training. I was already signed up so I'm just gonna go out & see what happens. You have an extra week so could get in two quality long runs. I did 22 8 days after the 70.3. Did an 8 mile tempo earlier this week & a 15 miler mid-week. Nothing more I can do but the body should at least be able to handle the distance.

I wouldn't approach your marathon like a race. Even pacing or a slight negative split is pretty proven in marathon racing. Only exception maybe on a course like Boston or something with significantly more downhill in the earlier miles. It's ok to back off goal pace a little during the middle of a race so that you don't blow up. I wouldn't advocate playing with such a big range of paces in a race.

I went on a little research trip down the Google hole last night and came back with a similar conclusion. Seems there's a lot of support for coming out a little slow, just to settle in and save a little glycogen. I think I'm going to simply try and run 7:48's or whatever it works out to get in under 3:20 and call it a day. If I suffer too hard I'll slow down, that's the name of the game it seems. Try and really crush the last 10k.

Thanks for weighing in.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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Good luck - and let us know the results of your experiment!
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [mrfreeze] [ In reply to ]
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Good luck!
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [CDA70.32021] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the support. I appreciate the responses. I will check back in and write a little race report. The race course profile and route can be viewed at http://theroguemarathon.com
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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Timely thread and good info here. I have 6 weeks between an upcoming 70.3 and my first marathon. I usually recover pretty well from 70.3's, so I'm plan to take a few days off and then start back up that next weekend with a 15 mile run, basically treating the 70.3 as a stair step in the mileage towards to the marathon.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [dktxracer] [ In reply to ]
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6 weeks seems like a healthy amount of time. I feel like I recover better after a 70.3 than a marathon. You probably don't even need to rush into a 15 miler with that much time. Could do something like 12-13. 16ish 5 weeks out. 18-22 range the next two weeks. Seems like a very doable timeframe.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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Definitely don't do the varied pacing plan for your first marathon. Go out at a pace that feels like it's too easy. If you end up having a lot in the tank for the last half and last 10k, then great -- that's a wonderful situation to be in and you can try for less negative splits on the next marathon you run.

The main other thing to note that can screw up your race: don't do anything very different on race day from what you've done in your long runs in training. Don't switch to new shoes, clothes you've never worn, nutrition or drinks you've never tried in training, etc. Blisters, chafing, GI issues, or cramping can easily compromise a marathon and all can be easily caused by doing something new on race day. As a triathlete, you presumably know the drill on this and you've planned and executed long races that built off training without adding new elements -- just resist any temptation to treat the marathon differently.

Finally, if the weather is extra hot for some reason, you need to back off on your target pace -- you can't negotiate with heat at the marathon distance. Seems unlikely for Medford OR in two weeks for a marathon starting at 6:30am, but looks like it's in the 80s there the next few days so just be careful on this one...
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [twcronin] [ In reply to ]
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Great advice, thanks.

I use TriDot for triathlon programming and they're huge on adjusting pace for environmental factors like heat. I did a deep dive on the subject after noticing how big my HR zone / pace goals would change with a little more ambient temp. It's drastic. I'll certainly watch out.

I've been a bit surprised listening to podcasts and reading blogs where experienced marathon runners say you need to be within 5 seconds on pace. I don't even think my Garmin is that accurate. I guess on the sharp end 5 seconds is a lot. I think I'll start with the 3:30 pacer and try and drop them at 13.1, then try and catch the 3:15 group in the last 10k. Or just survive, depending on how the day goes ;)

BTW, I'm not sensitive about threadjacking, if any of you other 70.3 to marathon athletes have questions or concerns please feel welcome to post.
Last edited by: Matt J: Oct 1, 21 12:00
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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Last long run went well. Hard tempo run on Wednesday might have been a bit pushing it, as the 20 mile day on Saturday was never easy. I had to keep reminding myself that I would have fresh legs on race day. Was less sore yesterday afternoon and today than after other long efforts. Ran the first 20 miles of the course and it doesn't seem as fast as I hoped. Although it's net down hill, there's quite a bit of rolling terrain and a decent climb early. Taper has started. Will try and eat less this time around as the last two tapers have resulted in weight gain.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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Legs feeling good, ready to rumble at 6:30 AM tomorrow morning. Wish me luck! Thanks for the kind words and support out there in Slowtwitch land. I'll update with my time sometime soon!
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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I guess I'm screaming into an empty room at this point, but I appreciated a few of the earlier posts and hope some of you guys will appreciate a brief report from the couch trying to avoid hamstring cramps.

I was ambitious and paid for it. First marathon, I guess I wanted the full experience. Went out hard. Felt super comfortable, heart rate was stuck about 3-5 beats below threshold. Everything was firing. Used a Stryd pod and was loving having a screen with pace, power, and HR off my chest strap. I felt so dialed. Every time I adjusted pace for a hill I would look down about 10 seconds later and boom the numbers looked perfect. It was a noble effort right up until the wheels came off.

I ran the first 18 miles at 7:54 average. I was pretty happy with that, I stopped to pee, fixed my heart rate monitor once, and had eaten and drank sufficiently. If I could have held it and finished around 3:25 I would have been super stoked. Nope. Mile 19 the pain crept. I tried to adjust to 8:30 and my heart rate kept bumping up too close to threshold. I just hit a wall. I felt like I was crawling in. Average pace 9:23 on the last 7. Brutal. Total time 3:38:41

Lots of lessons learned. I'll be stronger next time. Most obvious was that the 13.1 training for the 70.3's was great for 70.3's but to turnaround and think you can leverage the "fitness" was a fallacy in my case. There just wasn't the hard medium long tempo work. The fitness simply wasn't there. Not sure if I had tried to just run with the 3:35 pacer if I could have negative split it and shaved some time. I was super careful to negative split both runs in the 70.3's I raced this summer. Oh well, first positive split, first time I've hit that kind of wall in that kind of event. I've been crushed by bicycle racing a ton of times, but it was a different kind of pain. I won't forget this one for awhile, but I certainly didn't walk off the course thinking I don't want to run marathons. I think I can shave the 20 minutes or so I need to qualify for Boston in the next few years if I prioritize it. I guess if I can't do it in 5 years it will get 5 minutes easier :)

The data file is kinda screwed up, I'm infamous for starting and stopping my garmin at the wrong time, but anyone who wants to check it out on Strava I'm here...

https://www.strava.com/athletes/1778791
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you bonked. Nutrition details?
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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What was your weekly run mileage in the last 8 weeks leading to the marathon? If BQ is the goal, then you def need a run focused program. S/B/R won't cut it unless you're a super talented runner.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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I had a similar experience during my first marathon. Great job getting out there and giving it a try though! I Thought I had decent nutrition but still hit a wall at 20 miles. 26 miles is just a long way to run as fast as I was trying to run. I needed longer long runs and more medium-long tempo runs. During 70.3 training this year I prioritized a bit more targeted run training. It meant I had to dial back on a few bike workouts but had to compromise somewhere!
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]
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I eat a lot whether it's during a triathlon or mountain bike riding or just living. So, that translated to the marathon. My stomach tolerates nutrition well running. I drank a Maurten's 320 drink before the start and ate 4 Maurten's gels I carried, 2 with caffeine, and a bunch of Gu gels they had on course. Drank Gatorade at each aid station. My stomach felt great.

Don't think it was lack of calories. But, that can always be a factor.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [IanH] [ In reply to ]
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IanH wrote:
I had a similar experience during my first marathon. Great job getting out there and giving it a try though! I Thought I had decent nutrition but still hit a wall at 20 miles. 26 miles is just a long way to run as fast as I was trying to run. I needed longer long runs and more medium-long tempo runs. During 70.3 training this year I prioritized a bit more targeted run training. It meant I had to dial back on a few bike workouts but had to compromise somewhere!

This was my first year of racing and I definitely planned my calendar poorly. I want to go in more prepared to my next marathon. I will put something on the calendar for next year and make sure I give ample time to train specifically for this distance. Thanks for the reply.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [alex_korr] [ In reply to ]
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alex_korr wrote:
What was your weekly run mileage in the last 8 weeks leading to the marathon? If BQ is the goal, then you def need a run focused program. S/B/R won't cut it unless you're a super talented runner.

Last 8 weeks were funky because I tapered for St. George, then took 4 days off to recover, then cranked it back up. I think the greatest run volume I did was around 40 miles in a week. It's probably time for a coach if I'm going to try and mix up 70.3's, fulls, and a marathon or 2 in the same season. We'll see. Right now I'm looking forward to some strength training and speed work.
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Re: 70.3 to Marathon in 25 Days [Matt J] [ In reply to ]
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Good effort and lots of lessons to be learned for your next one!

There is no worse feeling than getting to the 18-20 mile mark of a marathon and feeling that sudden drain from your body happen. You quickly realize that 10k is a looooong way when you're on the struggle bus!

Overall, I'm sure you were in good shape but from what I read most people recommend peaking at the 70-80 mile per week range for meeting full potential for a marathon. Some people go higher and some can get by in the 55-60 mile per week range, but supposedly 70-80 is the sweet spot. Hard to juggle that kind of run mileage with 70.3 racing though! Like you said, might be worth investing in a coach for scheduling your races and prioritizing the right training at the right time.
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