That's too bad. I'm guessing that is common to do with respect to the pacing. I'm planning some extra 5k races so I can raise my training paces if they go well.

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Dimond Bikes Superfan

I'm not saying it works for everyone, but it is certainly possible to run only 3 days a week and put together some very nice runs off the bike. Intensity is the key, though, if you are going to run 3 days a week. I had a top 15 run time (including pro's) in my only IM 70.3 race this season and I ran 3 days a week for the entire season with the occasional brick workout that added a 10-30 minute run. Tuesday-intervals (10 miles), Thursday-tempo work (10 miles), Sunday-long run (13-18 miles).

I'm guessing that at some point in your life you ran more than 3 days/week.

although 10 yrs ago i would avg 50 as a runner...last 6 yrs i avged 34 as a triathlete and have slowed down a bit although i mantain a weekly mid long run and 3 other med runs...ramped up to 50 a few weeks ago and have hit some 6yr pr s but now im injured slightly..prob ramped up too fast..50yo male..seattle marathon 2010 3.06min here i come

I did, and I do not discount that base from partly contributing to my performance. That being said, I hadn't run a step in almost 3 years until this year (my first year as a triathlete) and I was basically at square one with my running fitness. If your run is very week and something you feel you need to put more time into, then definitely go ahead and throw in a couple more short easy runs per week; but, I believe that even if you are only running 3 days/week you can still improve significantly maintaining that frequency and adding intensity to the weekday runs and volume to the weekend runs as your fitness progresses. This is just my 2 cents as a former avid runner turned triathlete. If you've got the time and energy to run 5 or 6 days instead of 3 and still maintain your biking and swimming, then by all means, go for it...it certainly cannot hurt.

I'd like to know how many bike/swim miles you 50+/week guys are getting in. How many hours a week are you training total? Some of these run totals seem excessive, unless you are training 25+ hours/week (which maybe you are; thats why I'm curious).

Most interesting to me though, is what % of your overall tri training is coming in the form of running?

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The only place where I find triathletes who are discussing daily running is here on slowtwitch. Among the big group of triathletes I know, nobody consistently runs more then 4 days a week. According to the slowtwitch consensus, the european athletes do not know what they are doing. Just a bunch of genetically gifted athletes who do not need to train properly.

I don't think I said no one has shown improvement. I said that you won't find a successful program that runs just a few days a week. By successful, I mean a high school cross country team or college cross country team that is finishing in the upper third of their conference, or a club team or elite program that has their runners beating out the competition.

When you factor out all other variables and compare apples to apples, the guys running 6-12 times a week are going to beat the guys running 3 times a week every single time.



improvement compared to what? Were they couch potatos? Were they over training? Were they not doing any threshold training? Did everyone improve, or just a small portion and they used them as examples of people who improved?



That's irrelevant. What someone else can do on one program has nothing to do with what you can do on any program. If it was relevant, then why not follow the program of the guys running 2:10? I mean think about it, that's 30% faster!





And THAT is a completely different subject. I'll warn you that I've been in email wars over this in the past on this subject and I'm not very good and letting things drop. Many, many times Desert Dude and I have debated people who argue that, in this case, you don't need to run often to get fast or that weights are good for getting faster in a tri, and then they say something like, "well I want to be strong and look good at the beach"......okay, but getting strong and looking good is not getting fast, or "I want to have a life outside of triathlon".....again, having a life is not the same as getting fast.

If you want to run fast relative to *your* potential, you need to run 5+ times a week. If your life is so busy that you can't squeeze in an extra 2 15-30 minute runs a week, or you need to spend that extra time in the pool or bike because those events are weak, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that, but you *will* run slower if you aven't already established a solid base at some point in your life.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

 

Replying to: Re: 50+ miles running per week [ericlambi] by big slow mover Post: The only place where I find triathletes who are discussing daily running is here on slowtwitch. Among the big group of triathletes I know, nobody consistently runs more then 4 days a week. According to the slowtwitch consensus, the european athletes do not know what they are doing. Just a bunch of genetically gifted athletes who do not need to train properly.

I dunno, when I've read Brownlee's training weeks he seems to be running at least seven times a week...

This is incredibly flattering, and I think everything BarryP says is spot on. The only thing I would add is an emphasis on form during every single run, along with some barefoot running.

Finishing 2-3 runs a week with 20 minutes in socks on a grass field has done wonders for my strength. Also, count footfalls per minute occasionally, and aim for at least 90. It feels strange (especially if you're not used to forefoot striking), but is the number one way to free speed.

Granted, this advice is coming from a guy who once home-brewed meade and almost went blind, so take it for what it's worth :)

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David Roche
Some Work, All Play podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/...ll-play/id1521532868
Coaching: https://swaprunning.com/

That is *crucial.*

I used to run with Greg Watson and he only ran a few days a week and was able to win world's in the duathlon. All of his runs had some degree of intenisty in them. What's important to remember, though, is that Greg ran for Virginia Tech when they were national cross country champions (or around that era). He was undoubtedly putting in 60-85 miles a week. It took him 8 years to build up to that.

As a duathlete running a few days a week he was able to maintain a lot of that fitness, but he was still *slower* than he was in college. See? As I said before, when comparing apples to apples, the 70 mile 7 days/week guy is faster than the 35 mile 3 days/week guy, and that 3 days/week world champ didn't get there without paying some serious 70 mile/week dues.

And FWIW, I once ran a 17:50 5K off of 2 weeks of running. Does anyone here seriously think that that is a good training plan?

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I'm not sure your question is optimal. If you want to get to 40+ mpw but your limiter is fragile legs then it's best if you do 7 miles 6 days per week at a slow pace. There would be NO intensity until your legs have adapted and are no longer fragile at that distance.

However, if time is your limiter, then something like this may be optimal:
4, 8, 4, 7, 8, 12 (weekend with more time)

And depending on how the swim/cycle workouts shake out and how sturdy your legs are and how much recovery capacity you have, some of those 4 mile days can include speedwork. One of those 8 mile days, or 4-5 miles of your 12 mile day could be tempo.

What is your perceived limiter? What are you really after?

Completely agree with the form point. It was something that struck me while watching the NYC marathon this weekend. If you look at the elite marathoners, their form isn't that different from what you see with elite 10K runners (most obvious, is how their foot almost touches their butt). They're running! No shuffling through it for them.

Of course, mere mortals AGers will never be able to run with that kind of follow through in long course race because elites run at much higher percent of threshold, but it's something that we need to be aware. While it's easy to allow form to break down at the end of a long race (open marathon, 1/2 IM, IM, etc), I suspect it's less efficient and compounds the slowdown people experience in the final miles (I'd even suggest the deterioration in form becomes a multiplier of the deceleration related to fatigue).

I highlighted you and others because you've always given good insights and take questions seriously. Thanks to guys like you, last week at the Marine Corps Marathon, I took 8 mins off my marathon PR to 2:50. I went from 114th at the 13.1 mark to 78th at at the finish line and was crushing dreams all the way! ;)

I've always said the euros can run. But then again I've been bumped down the results podium b/c of their ability to run well.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

My peak years where I was running that much, I ran 6-7x per week over 6 days, rode 4 days per week, swam 3-4 days per week. Avg training time per week was about 15-16 hours and I had 2 days where I only did 1 workout.

A couple of years ago (during nov->Feb) where I avg 54mpw per week for that time, I was running 7-8x over 6 days, riding 2x on trainer doing intervals, swimming 2x per week. avg training time was about 11 hours per week.

During the peak of the racing season (april through late Oct) from 2006-2008 I was put in ~40-45 miles per week running, rode about 175 and swam 11,000 yards.
During racing season 2006-2008, training time was never more then 20 hours except maybe 6 weeks total during those three years, but was consistent @ 15-16 hours every week.

I'm fortunate in that I had two excellent coaches (Paulo Sousa and myself) during that time who knew what they were doing although both had slightly different takes on the daily work in those schedules and how things were set up

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I never said nobody runs every day. It would not surprise me more ITU guys run every day.

I do think that for triathlon (at least for the non talented runners and all age groupers) it is much more important what you can do with 2 or 3 run days a week (with 1 or 2 more easy jogs). And then make the 2 or 3 days count with respect to volume and intensity.

Off course you don't win a run championships with a triathlon run plan. And neither would most triathletes have a shot at winning a run race if they would focus on it.

Same goes for the other disciplines. If I go to my brother (a cyclist) with my bike plan he starts laughing too. Less then 6 training days and 15 hours a week on the bike is not bike training for him. Real cycling starts at 20 hours a week. You think you can close to your cycling potential with less then 20 hours a week? I don't.

If you take a look in the real world of triathlon, you will see that there are not many athletes (not a single one I know) who can consistently run 6 days/week with a decent training load on 3 of those days.

over the past few years, i've become more and more of a runner and less and less of a triathlete. In the summer I bike around 100 miles a week. The rest of the year, I bike around 50-75 miles a week, weather permitting.

Every once in a while, I'll swim.

I mentioned doing something very similar way back toward the beginning of this thread. While I don't run the same exact mileage every day, I keep it within a close range. A 50 mile week is 7 runs of 6-8 miles. I started doing this back in late 2007 trying to run 45+ per week. Since then I've gradually built to where I'm currently running 70+ MPW. Essentially daily runs of 8-12 miles.

During this time I have broken every PR from 2 miles to the marathon, many of them numerous times - and I'm still getting faster. I have gone from a MOP runner, to regularly placing in the top 3 in my AG in most local running events.

Is running similar mileage every day boring? Not at all. I rarely run the same route two days in a row. Some runs are fast, some easy, some hilly, some flat, some roads, some trails, etc. Some days I'll split the mileage between two runs and do a shorter hard run early and a longer easy run later. If I do something like a 5K race on a Saturday morning, I'll usually follow that with a 7-9 mile run later in the day.

Unless I'm specifically training for a longer race like a half or full marathon, I haven't seen any real benefit in doing runs of longer than 14 miles on a regular basis. I have run as much as just over 100 MPW while never having a single run longer than 12 miles. Shortly after that week I had solid PRs 3 weeks in a row in a 20K, 10 miler and 5K. I placed in both of the longer races, but not the 5K as there are local guys in the 50-54 AG still running sub 18 and I'm not that fast - yet.

What you seem to be saying -and I agree - is not much attention or importance is placed on getting in a solid block of consistently running 50+ MPW prior to transitioning to a race training program.

I also agree with Barry in that while people can run decently off these programs of 3 days/week, they will not be running at their full potential. If running only 3 days/week was really that great, all the top runners would be doing it - and as far as I know none of them do it.

My comments are based from the perspective of being primarily a runner. I will end up running around 3000 miles this year, but have done no swimming and very little biking. Last year I did 8 multisport races and only ran just over 2000 miles. I have gravitated in this direction because we have a running race locally almost every week all year while we only have a couple local triathlons.

YMMV.

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Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!

My experience as well. I used to get tight calves after runs, even easy ones, when I was on the 3/4 day-a-week plan. I think when you run every day, your body is forced to adapt to running everyday. One of those adaptations is faster recovery in addition to less deterioration (from a practical standpoint, there isn't a difference).

When you're in the 3-4 day a week program, you go out and run 6 miles, and your body says, "That hurt, good thing I have a couple days to recover!" When you run every day, your body says, "Okay, I better get ready quickly, because this SOB is going to put me through another 7 miles in less than 24 hours."

Think about the distribution of stress on your body from runs this way. If you run 4x a week at 7 miles each, each run is 25% of your volume. If you run 7x7, then each run is less than 15% of your volume. In a way, assuming a proper build up, you get 75% more total volume but the individual doses can be viewed as less.

I think when you run every day, your body is forced to adapt to running everyday.

I think there is something about this. Nutrition is key too.

In July, I still was doing some up-tempo (for me) runs. I would go out and run an 8-10 mile run every week that included tempo work. I also raced a 1/2 marathon and a 10K in July. As soon as I bumped my mileage up to 60+ in August, the recovery was a lot harder. So much so that I reduced the intensity of those runs so that I could recover better.

When all was said and done, I ran 790 miles in June-September (including the 50 miler). I committed to doing the race in June, but I had been running fairly consistently through the year (about 120-130 miles a month) up until that point. I felt good all summer. I got through the race without any injury. And I really think that I am as running fit as I have ever been. I'm doing a 50K coming up in December and looking forward to it.

Bernie

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"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.

I know this is a post from a LONG time ago but still very relevant

What about weekly mileage for someone who only does sprint distance?

How much time do you have and how good do you want to be?

I have 167 hours a week and want to be top 3 at local sprint races

If you want to be the best you can be then you will have to train to be your best. Your weekly distance will be an amount that stimulates you to be better, that's different for everyone.

If you have been running, lets say 30 miles per week and you're not getting faster or being able to run fast longer then a different stimulus may be in order. That could be more running, faster running or both.

It could also be an amount that's lower than you do now if you are unable to to repeat your weekly workouts or are not improving.

I would build up to your 4 week sustainable run mileage from last season over 5 to 10 weeks and then run up to 25% more for another 5 weeks and see how you do. If you can run more then bump up another 10% for another 5 to 10 weeks. That's to 25 weeks of running and should get you through the winter.


With all that said, I'll be running up to 55 miles per week this winter to be ready for a half in the spring and then a bunch of sprints in the summer. When February comes around I'll have to back off to just under 40 since I know I'm unable to consistently run that volume and ride as well.