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2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense
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I looked at the results after watching the race in person and noticed some things that did not make sense to me...First, there were a large number of Ceepo bikes that did not show up in the count. What about Merlin? - I saw a handful of those (I ride one, so I noticed more than three - which is what Teschner, Fuji and Ridley had). I saw at least 3 Planet X bikes - I know nothing about them, but know that there are a few people who ride them on here, so I noticed. I saw at least 3 Sevens and Serottas as well. There were more than 3 Storck bikes, and I counted 3 Isaacs in the first 200 bikes on the course. What about Erox? I know there were 2 in the top 200. Heck, they counted 1694 kits (Shimano, Campy, SRAM) on the bikes but only 1429 bikes? WTF?

Enough of my random musings...Statistically, there were 1855 people that were issued race numbers. According to IM Live, 1788 started the race - which means that there should be at least 1788 bikes racked and ready to race. The actual number of bikes counted in the poll were 1429 (add them yourself if you don't believe me). That means that there are 359 bikes unaccounted for (using 1788 starters). It means that there were 265 bikes that the counters looked at, counted the drivetrain (Sram, Campy, Shimano) and forgot to couont the bike. 1788 starters and 1429 bikes counted means that the counters missed over 20% of the frames in the field. Look back over past years counts - Seven, Serotta, Ceepo, Cube, Merlin, etc...weren't left out then. If this is going to be reported on, do we need an indepenent accounting firm? If I were Planet X, I'd really want to know how many of my bikes were out there. I know Guru did their own independent count. I am sure many here would love to see how theirs matched up.

There is no doubt that Cervelo and Kuota had numbers that probably would mirror a true, accurate count, but missing 20% of the field is unacceptable when so many people look at this count.
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Kristi] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. Take it with a grain of salt considering the guerilla marketing that probably goes on here from time to time. don't know what to believe anymore.

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Team Medique Powered by Silber Investments
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Kristi] [ In reply to ]
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"I know there were 2 in the top 200. Heck, they counted 1694 kits (Shimano, Campy, SRAM) on the bikes but only 1429 bikes? WTF?"

i was not there counting bikes this year, but i'll tell you what it TF is.

there are about 200 bike brands in this race. that is up from 160 brands when i started counting in 1992. it is simply too difficult to try to count every brand in the race when you're dealing with ironman people in kona that i can't even begin to describe, in terms of just sheer hassle value. once the center of power transfers from the reasonable people in tarpon springs to the completely unpredictable (and often worse) volunteer coordinators in kona (football mom is the refreshing exception) it's absolute mayhem trying to count bikes. so, you ignore the brands that you know are going to number less than 5 or 6 or even 10, and you concentrate on those what matter most to the greatest number of people.

But, i understand your angst, so, in no particular order, and in the full knowledge that i'm orphaning many brands from my hasty listing below, let's hear a shout out for...

Cheetah
Colnago
Cube
Klein
Merlin
Serotta
Storck
Simplon
Basso
Holland
Time
Bike Friday
Alpina-Giro
Attack
Titanflex
Strong
Seven
IF
Bianchi
Isaac
Quantec
Spectrum
Lemond
Sirer
Planet X
Pinarello
Fondriest
Grove
Cytek
Yaqui
Torque
Opus
Mongoose
Battaglin
De Rosa
Intense
Hotta
Tsunami
Zieman
Panasonic
Dean
Inexa
Taylor
Latido
Randazzo
GT
Ravenell
Van Dessel
Musing
Intermax
Rotwild
Ridley
Corima
Villiger
Bauer
Tisports
Author
Giannimota
Cyfac
BMC
Merida
Montrose
Wilier
Abici
Leader
Steelman
Framesci
Garneau
Koga-Miata
EPK
Gurci
Votec
Bosevski
Daccordi
Di Bernardi
Somec
Moto
Stevens
Agrest
Kocmo
De Vinci
Maystorm
Teschner
Cucuma
WMK
Genius
Nexa
Forte
Lapiere
Merckx
Univega
Kolga
Koba
HED
BH
Anatomic
Marinoni
Duratec
Neon
Gusty
Blue
Primorosso
Decathlon
Cinelli
Profile
Kijafa
Stowe
Chebici
Prorace
Zanetti
Zipp
Kuips
Omega
Priveterra
CSK
Ghost
Monoc
Dolan
Spectre
Roberts
Ticycles
Titus
Sigma
Tommasini
Carerra
Turro
Carbonsports
Airborne
Allen
Sampson
Roark
Gion
Interloc
Vincolo
Porche
Pinar
Endorfin
Azzurri
Simonelli
Salsa
Triexpert
Pearl
Boreas
Hercules
Silent Sports
Centurion
Spin
Chamizo
K2
Norco
Olmo
Progress
KHS
Cilo
Kelly's

I wrote that in two breaths.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"Bike Friday"

Were there any on the pier? Ever?

Brad

3SIXTY5cycling.com
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [hillier99] [ In reply to ]
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"Were there any on the pier? Ever?"

steve locke used to bring his when he raced kona. every one of those brands i listed has had one or more bikes in the hawaiian ironman over the last 2 years. of course i'm leaving out the top 15 or 20 brands, and there are another 20 or 25 i'm not listing because i can't think of them.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Oct 15, 07 16:04
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [hillier99] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely.

In Reply To:
"Bike Friday"

Were there any on the pier? Ever?

Brad
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Kristi] [ In reply to ]
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good catch on that one Kristi. I agree that if they are taking the time to look at the group then they should at least figure out what kind of bike it's attached to.

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Ann Arbor Triathlon Club

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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think it is pretty horrible that you have left so many different manufacturers off of that list. You obviously have some sort of hidden agenda.

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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [calvinknight] [ In reply to ]
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"good catch on that one Kristi. I agree that if they are taking the time to look at the group then they should at least figure out what kind of bike it's attached to."

i counted for 15 years. now i've handed it over to others, who've decided to count the 20 or 30 important brands. but you think they should count them all. i admire your sense of... completeness.

i think you should explain why you think the counters should do this, since your implication is that their failure to do so is evidence of dishonor or laziness or collusion. i remember years ago the kestrel people were pretty sure i was gaming the count. so they went and did their own count, and found that i had actually understated my own bikes by one or two, and overstated theirs by the same amount. other companies have thought the same thing over the years. so what happened over time was that the count morphed. a decade ago i was begging for help. last year i had to beat them away with a stick. there were too many. we had about 20 people counting, and we could've had 50. all from the industry.

but we can't have 50. we can barely have a dozen, because ironman limits the number of people counting, and they don't allow them to count in the bike corral anymore, and they don't allow them tents, so they have to sit in the sun for 7 hours. and the bikes don't stop, they just keep coming by at whatever pace the bike checkers release them, so there's no time to count 200 brands, like their used to be.

what we have now is the industry counting as a group — people from trek, QR, scott, cervelo, fizik, profile design, oval concepts, zipp, cannondale, triathlete magazine, and others i can't think of at the moment. there is no gaming the count, because everybody's watching everybody, and there's been enough "checking up" on people over the years that everybody trusts everybody.

you're right, the numbers are not going to add up, because there are aerobars and wheels that aren't recognizable, or are homemade, or are one-offs that are impossible to identify. there are no aerobars on a few bikes. there are also no aero wheels on a lot of bikes. a lot of saddles are unrecognizable, or are house brands made by many of these 200 companies. so they don't get counted. and, of course, many of these brands just don't matter in any real measure! or if they do matter to you, then their own company representatives should be out there counting their own bikes and wheels and saddles!

after 15 years of the counters having to prove their bona fides — and they've been proven, over and over — quite honestly it is only the johnny-come-lately folks who have never been there, and don't know what the count entails, that cast aspersions on those who labored to count bikes on friday before the race.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Did I miss a frame material count somewhere in there? I'd beintersted to see carbon vs. aluminum vs. ti vs.....

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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You missed Valdora in your shout out. How did you come up with that list? Did you just have it, or did you really just think it up?

----------
Fortitudine Vincimus
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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"the johnny-come-lately folks who have never been there, and don't know what the count entails, that cast aspersions"

now that is what my favorite wisconsin-based tv show would call a BUURRRRNN!

thank you dan for the many years, and the rest of the folks that now do the gear count year after year and provide us with even more to chat about.


//semi retired - old school = http://www.iwilltri.com //
Last edited by: hectorguatemala: Oct 16, 07 12:15
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"good catch on that one Kristi. I agree that if they are taking the time to look at the group then they should at least figure out what kind of bike it's attached to."

i counted for 15 years. now i've handed it over to others, who've decided to count the 20 or 30 important brands. but you think they should count them all. i admire your sense of... completeness.

i think you should explain why you think the counters should do this, since your implication is that their failure to do so is evidence of dishonor or laziness or collusion.
Dan,

First, let me say WOW, I was not expecting anything close to that kind of response to my comment. But I certainly appreciate you taking the time to go over the history of the count and the multitude of factors involved. My post was not intended to imply any sort of dishonor, collusion, or any malicious intent of any sort. If anything my very un-informed comment was implying laziness in that I would assume that in most cases it is more difficult to determine which group is on a bike than the brand the bike. I've never been to Kona and I find these data very interesting and with the information that you gave in your reply about the difficulties of collecting these data, I would be very hesitant to disparage the work of the people out there in the sun doing the actual counting. Given the constraints I'm sure that the people collecting the data are doing their very best to present an accurate depiction of the field composition. My original post did not take any of those limitations into account since I was not aware of them before you explained, this may very well throw me into the category of idiot "johnny-come-lately" since have never been to Kona and I did not know what all goes into the count logistically. However, I hope that I have reasonably demonstrated that I had no desire to malign the people doing the work. I was simply approaching the issue as an optimist that was wishful for more complete data; I'm a scientist and it's ingrained in me to always want more data. I apologize for my hasty and ill-conceived post and I would like to express my gratitude to yourself and all the other volunteers over the years that have worked to provide the rest of us with these interesting data.

-Dave Vannette

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Ann Arbor Triathlon Club

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Last edited by: calvinknight: Oct 15, 07 17:55
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I helped the bike count and as Dan stated each set of 2 people had x number of bike brands to count making it more honest. Same for wheels, saddles etc...And of course some of us (I did anyway) also counted other "things". The Ceepo guy asked me about his brand but as a counter I had nothing to do with who picks the brands to count, I did do a mental count because this company easily had 30+ (on the low side) bikes!And every time he asked me I told him what I thought I had seen (which were more). But to those out there wondering...it was from 11.50 to 5.45pm in the sun and shade and lots of staring at bikes making sure you didn't miss something or double count, plus there are many people we did not see who checked in their bikes a different way such as as Scott Rigsby on his Beyond Fabrications (19 bikes by the way) or the blind tandem or even who makes the hand cycles. But I agree I would like to see every bike, wheel etc in the count, but man it was tough enough! For those who really care we did see 7/8 speed grip shifters, a QR Private Reserve, a Greg LeMond Team Z bike, a Bike Friday Type bike, a Titan Flex, and 1, just 1 bike with no aero bars what so ever!
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan - with you we got a real count. There is marketing value in that count - for instance Gerard knew exactly how many Alu P3's were there. I cant for a second think that the information was free...or was it? It is unfortunate that it seems that this years count has a few "hanging chads" and or "dimpled chads". I was shocked at first to see that there were no PX bikes in the count as I know a few folks who were going to be there on a PX. I am not throwing stones at all, nor am I implying that dollars made an alteration to the results...but, knowing that there is a value to the count...I would first and formost offer the count to people willing to pay me for the information.

I also see PX as a threat to some of the larger folks out there....but that is just me.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Kristi] [ In reply to ]
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You wanna hear something more interesting?
We were wayching the 2006 NBC coverage on DVD while following live event on the PC. My buddies figured a fun game. On 2006 DVD they have short appearences of IM athletes with their names listed. Our little game was name the race he/she qualified and win $20
Four out of six people, their names didn't show up on any qualifying race and lottery. Strange huh?

_________________________________________________

It hurts so bad, it feels good.
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [beaker] [ In reply to ]
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Beaker,

Thanks for helping out.

I'm contemplating the situation you guys face on bike count day. Could a possible solution just be to photograph every bike as it comes into transition and then do the actual "counting" later? With digital cameras and large memory cards, it seems like it could be done. This might take out some of the stress of the day.

Personally, I think it would be fun to see an exact, complete count of every frame on the pier. I'm not there though and I'm not doing the work, so I guess I can wish in one hand and sh#t in the other...

As always, interesting stats.

mm
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [mullinsm] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting that you ask about filming it. Someone definately did film the entire thing (maybe more). What a long edit day that will be! And yes I just read that Cervelo did know every make,model and year of Cervelo that walked in front of us. The Cervelo guy did count just that! My clipboard was actaully photographed by some woman much to my displeasure when I realized what she had done! No bother though as I have nothing to hide in the count as besides the 12 or so us "officially" counting I am sure others were too. And yes I saw at least 4 Planet X's, was suprised not more. But in all reality people, I think a better measure of a company'smarket share/ penetration is to count at another Ironman, not Kona. More regular people, weekend guys, not just the lucky ones on the Big Island.
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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No BP Stealth?

RunFAR Racing Services
http://www.Run-far.com
Team Cambridge
Hilltop Bicycle Repair
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [runningmanrick] [ In reply to ]
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Not a one! ;-)

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [beaker] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
But in all reality people, I think a better measure of a company'smarket share/ penetration is to count at another Ironman, not Kona. More regular people, weekend guys, not just the lucky ones on the Big Island.

I agree, but it could be argued that, since Kona represents the most widely known and watched 'elite' race in our sport, the bikes at that race might foreshadow future trends among us 'regular' people. But that assumes that us regular folk want to emulate some athlete or group of athletes that make it to Kona...

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Ann Arbor Triathlon Club

Follow me on Twitter
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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You forgot one: Black Sheep (they're made in a garage across town from me.)

I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't really find the Kona bike count all that interesting. What I do find interesting is the general trends ... the shift from steel to aluminum to ti to carbon. Etc.

*****
"In case of flood climb to safety"
Last edited by: jcurtis: Oct 15, 07 19:51
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [beaker] [ In reply to ]
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What about Huffy? What about the banana seat bike?

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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [NamssoB] [ In reply to ]
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Back in the day the "Huffy's" were really from Yamagucci...now they one day will have some serious value for collectors.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: 2007 Kona bike count - doesn't make sense [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan - you are absoultely, 100%, my hero. Thank you! I wasn't trying to start a big 'to do' - God knows, we tried a running count early in the bike, but it was REALLY difficult! Wish you were here! We should go for another run like we did in the dead of winter in St. Louis with Steve Hed and Mark Lynskey - THAT was a good time!

Kristi
Last edited by: Kristi: Oct 15, 07 20:39
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