I would be very interested to see what people with knowledge say on the subject, but with a sub 2:40 marathon PR I would say that your run is always a miss.

Seems (to me) that you have left all of your IM runs on the bike course.

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The first time man split the atom was when the atom tried to hold Jens Voigt's wheel, but cracked.

What have you learned from past experiences to put all the pressure into this event?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Very true, I've not really ever put together a good ironman run. Probably not enough run training during those ironman builds in "hopes" that my natural run ability would carry me through. I feel pretty confident I've disproven that method to myself...especially as I age!

I've learned that if you want endless opportunities at racing, don't start a small business of your own and have kids :).

All joking aside, in the past I've tended to not be focused enough on single events. Trying to race sprint tris too much during ironman training, throw in an Olympic distance tri in the middle marathon training, etc. My thinking this type around would be trying to utilize my time more effectively and make the most of the free time and flexibility I have around work and family.

Your cons isn't putting all your eggs into this basket. The con I see is likely your inability to actually train up for your own expectation/desire. You obviously have some pretty solid run pedigree, so either lack of patience on the bike or lack of run fitness in training is leading you to have terrible runs.

How your going to fix that in the next year with all that you have on your plate w/ a limitation on time?


The structure really isn't the issue, I see it as the commitment/ability to actual train for your expectations as the issue. Answer that and the plan will easily fall into place.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Months 1-3 - Beer. Netflix. Eat poorly. (Assuming you are from a swimming background, so you should be familiar with this part.)
Months 4-5 - Tell yourself you need to get in shape. Do a few spins while watching Netflix. Jump back in the pool. Run home from work.
Month 6 - Buy online training program. Ignore it.
Month 7-8 - Build
Month 9 - Start shopping for a new bike and wheels to get those 'free watts'
Month 10 - Recover from some overuse injury related to minor fit issue or too much mileage on new bike.
Months 11-12 - Abbreviated intensity and peak cycles.
Raceday - Beat TT

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What is your available hrs a WK?

I have no suggestions just curious.

There have been a few good threads recent;y on self coaching. I'd go look those up and read them. They offer a ton of good nuggets on the how to.
Like Brooks said you've got a lot of questions that need to be answered before you even consider how to structure things

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I also enjoy self coaching, this year I did trainer road and really enjoyed their training plans. I know the price just went up, but I think and annual subscription is very reasonable for what you get.
I cant touch your run times, and bike times are very subjective to the course. (Did you ride 5:10 at Arizona or Whistler) Do you have a powermeter or do you just ride off of feel on the bike?

Good point. I think in the past, now looking back, I really had unlimited time to train and with good friends in varying athletic circles (some runners, some cyclists, some triathletes) I was pretty much up to do whatever anyone else wanted to do. Now that I've got to be much more useful of my available training time there's not the same freedom to stray. To that point, a couple years back I followed a much more rigid weekly schedule of training and probably went in the most prepared for an Ironman race (which was derailed by a bike crash at mile 65).

"Coaching" is wholly unnecessary, unless your are an Olympic or Pro athlete. It sounds like you are pretty fit, so you really don't need a a heck of a lot of guidance. You know what works for you.

"Half Ironman" doesn't require an organized event, paying up the yin yang.
It can be done in just about any city, on any given day. It's not even a big deal.

Realistically I've got 12-15 good hours of training time plus some extra for prep/recovery/etc. I'm lucky with the set up that I've got...can run from either home or work no problem, have a smart trainer set up in the basement plus a nice treadmill, and good access to 2 pools/gyms. There's no excuse from a resource standpoint to not be able to train.

I guess a more specific question on structuring my year is do I keep a balanced mix throughout the winter months or do I incorporate some blocks of sport specific training...say, a 4 week block with lots of swimming while maintaining some biking and running (at an enjoyment level) and then a bike block while maintaining the other 2. I tend to do a fair amount of run mileage on the trails during the winter which I find helps turn the mind off stressing over pace.

There are many, many great threads on the benefits of block training in the archives. I'd search for a few of those, most iirc are about 4-10yr old.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I'll respectfully disagree that coaching is unnecessary for the normal person but it can mean very different things for each person. I don't think I'd benefit from one in terms of the X's and O's of training as I enjoy tinkering with and researching those things (as I'm doing here) but I probably would benefit from a coach as someone to keep me on the right path toward the big picture goal.

Sure, I can do a half ironman at home but I enjoy the excitement of the races as does my wife (she's turned more runner than triathlete these days) and the early season races I have picked out are ones in locations that we want to visit and turn into mini family vacations. It works for us. That brings up another factor in my training in that my wife is very supportive of my training and goals.

Thanks. I just searched 'ironman block training' and that seems to have pulled up some good possible threads.

I remember there being a pretty long, involved thread about the guy going all in for 1 year to qualify for Kona and he actually did it. Can anyone link to that??

Woa! 2:40 run!!! That is an elite level of running for sure. I'm no expert but you should be doing at least a 3:15 IM run but more like a 3:05 to 3:10. Just to put it into perspective, my open marathon PR was 3:07:56 at age 43 (late starter in life). Of my 4 IM runs I've done a 3:36 and 3:37. My other two were 3:47 and 3:55 and those were slower and shitty (IMO) due to nutrition issues/heat/hills. And I was in my mid to late 40s doing all 4 IMs. So maybe it's worth getting a coach or outside help to unlock your running potential in a full IM. You have the genes for sure and can run soooooo much faster! I do think you are over cooking the bike to hinder your running like that. And if Kona is your goal, than maybe it's worth the extra help and guidance.

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

Thanks for the compliment but 2:40 is far from elite and I've admittedly been a good example of the adage that it doesn't matter how fast of a runner you are if you use it all up on the bike. The last couple of ironmans I had were filled with some bad luck & decisions despite having some good fitness going in. I overcooked the bike ride one year and walked the marathon, crashed out on the bike one year, made some poor (last minute) nutrition choices another year which led to blacking out halfway on the run.

I have had a hard time figuring out pacing on the bike for sure. I know there's a balance in there somewhere for riding fast but not too fast to run well (and in terms of KQ'ing, not losing too much time to the stronger riders).

Like this awesomely "simple" run block one....

Being a *strongish* runner you actually should work at becoming more disciplined with the bike leg. That way the run actually is a strength. So that means get a PM.

You want to talk about KQ now is the time to start training like one. You must be disciplined on the bike cus the run imo is there. You just imo race stupid/immature.

(I would actually race a few more times next year to ride smart and then run successful in a race setting).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

There is an element to having good luck for the run as so much can happen in an Ironman. It's a long day even if you're fast.

On the other end of the spectrum my runs are better than my bike performances in an Ironman. I might hold a bit too much in the bike. Even my coach agrees. But nutrition issues and weather (pouring rain and wind) have hindered a couple IM bikes.

I bet once you find the optimal pacing on the bike you'll crush your IM run. I think it also takes practice and doing a bunch of IMs to finally get it all down correctly.

PS - I do think 2:40 is an awesome run! I always wanted to break 3 hours but now I'm an old lady!

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Death is easy....peaceful. Life is harder.

I've got a powermeter (Garmin Vector) and a Tacx smart trainer...not that I really KNOW how to use them for training though (I'm slowly seeing the light that I need to dive deeper there).

Would your suggestion be to pedal away, with purpose, over these winter months? Build in a mix of strength, speed & endurance workouts?

The races have not gone well and looking back I can totally recognize that most of that was self inflicted. Coming from a collegiate cross/track racing background, long distance triathlon racing, especially on the bike, is a totally different mindset. Even 15 years removed it still tough to shake that "go with the pack" mentality! I'd imagine if I had a better understanding of HOW my powermeter can help me that could lead to much smarter racing on the bike.

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=4643720#p4643720

Good luck!

I would suggest riding hard intervals on smart trainer, use outdoor riding for fun/skills....mtb/cx are great “off season” bike sets. Zwift to me is a game changer for athletes over the last few years. I’d caution to use it wisely and not get caught up in the racing bullshit that can occur.

Accept that IM is boring af on the bike. The more you can accept that and just sit in on an interval/watt/pace the better you will be. No wasted energy, no trashing your legs riding stupid.

It’s funny you said your a former d1 runner. I just had that conversation that I see D1 runners as the hardest to convert to top level tri cus they can’t not help but identify and follow the running mindset. It’s almost like they never really buy into that this is a whole new sport, and especially when they see their run volume being cut in half, etc. So that thought process you have isn’t uncommon actually.

The PM will allow you to sit on an comfortable pace. I’ve always thought IM race doesn’t start until mile 80 on the bike and mile ~18ish on the run. Meaning if you’ve already blown your wade by then your going to crash and burn similar to what you’ve experienced.

So you have hope, you just need to be disciplined even more so if you want KQ. Let it come down to the run and don’t sabotage yourself before that.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

A few thoughts....

1. Your Kona slot has already been decided... best to put it out if your mind and be process oriented

2. You use a power meter so that you ride your pre-run 5hr power for five hours at your race, with a low VI. Hopefully your w/kg and w/CdA are high enough

3. If you’re not intrinsically motivated, bike racing and masters swimming.

4. Never get hurt, over trained, or sick. Sleep.

5. Repetition is your friend

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

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