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14 swim sessions left in your tri "career"
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So the normal thing when talking about becoming a faster swimmer is to achieve better technique if you are a bad/slow swimmer. This will ofcourse require time and not something you change over night. But what if you only 14 swim sessions left before you hang up triathlon for a couple of years (half IM to end it all), would you advise that person differently? Would you focus more on power/stamina and just let them(me) plow through the water or does it even with that limited amount of time make sense to focus on technique?
Time commitment is 2 swims a week of 45-60min lenght for 7 weeks. Last half was 37 min in wetsuit.
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Just get fitter. You have almost no hope to change your technique in that time. And focus on practicing your T1 every day and shaving time off T1. You will make more savings shaving your T1 to get a pro like time than what you shave in the water. Sorry, that's the hard truth on 2x swims per week for 7 weeks
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Plow through the water and focus on the bike and run
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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lassekk wrote:
Time commitment is 2 swims a week of 45-60min lenght for 7 weeks. Last half was 37 min in wetsuit.

1st swim lesson: double your swim sessions per week. invoice is in the mail.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think there is some good wisdom here, Dan.

So the same weekly distance, let's call it 6000 yards, spread over 1500y x 4 sessions will almost certainly improve one more than 3000y x 2 sessions. But why? Primarily a function of repetition? Ingraining good habits + feel for water?

Getting to the place where you are swimming more days in a given week than you are not swimming seems like a good goal for anyone trying to improve their swim. But it doesn't feel like the kind of 'quick hack' that OP is looking for. Intuitively, it makes sense. When I swim more, I feel better swimming. But i'm not sure why, exactly.
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]
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MadTownTRI wrote:
I think there is some good wisdom here, Dan.

So the same weekly distance, let's call it 6000 yards, spread over 1500y x 4 sessions will almost certainly improve one more than 3000y x 2 sessions. But why? Primarily a function of repetition? Ingraining good habits + feel for water?

Getting to the place where you are swimming more days in a given week than you are not swimming seems like a good goal for anyone trying to improve their swim. But it doesn't feel like the kind of 'quick hack' that OP is looking for. Intuitively, it makes sense. When I swim more, I feel better swimming. But i'm not sure why, exactly.

Aside from other factors it is less downtime between repetition - like any skill based sport. The more frequently you do it the better. (frequently being key over total hours.)
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]
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MadTownTRI wrote:
I think there is some good wisdom here, Dan.

So the same weekly distance, let's call it 6000 yards, spread over 1500y x 4 sessions will almost certainly improve one more than 3000y x 2 sessions. But why? Primarily a function of repetition? Ingraining good habits + feel for water?

Getting to the place where you are swimming more days in a given week than you are not swimming seems like a good goal for anyone trying to improve their swim. But it doesn't feel like the kind of 'quick hack' that OP is looking for. Intuitively, it makes sense. When I swim more, I feel better swimming. But i'm not sure why, exactly.

the short answer is, i don't know why. i just know that. i have found a pretty good groove, lately. i swim usually around 1,800 yards per session. very occasionally i'll swim a 3,000 yard session, but only if i have a single set, or long swim, planned that specifically requires that many yards. otherwise, these shorter sessions give me plenty of time to get in quality work without me getting bored or stale.

i can speculate the following: i make more headway when i'm fresh, so, i get more done with more sessions of fewer yards. there's more of an opportunity for me to be in the water, absorbing the last workout, preparing for the next. my proprioception does not fade.

but also, i'm usually doing 2 or 3 workouts in a day, and if i don't keep them fairly short i don't perform well. i get too tired. so, i always start with a morning run. but it's short. so that i can still do a good swim at noon. or, i swim mid-morning and then run afterward. i can't do a top quality run if i'm too worn from the swim. and so forth.

i just find that my sweet spot, for improving in the water, is 4 to 5 times a week. 1 of those times, ideally, is a long swim, for time. 1,500 yards. 2,000 yards. eventually, when i'm at my fittest, 3,000 yards, because there's a "postal" swim masters holds for 3,000 yards, we're coming up to it, and monty and i have that sitting out there as a goal. those sustained swims are (for me) big medicine.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Forget about trying to improve your swimming, and start learning how to "race" the swim portion of a triathlon.

Some tips and hints, in no particular order:
  • Remember that drafting in the swim is perfectly legal, and if not faster - certainly saves energy
  • Don't ever be swimming with no-one in front of you.
  • Look for heavy kickers - keep your eyes up and look for those massive glorious bubbles - bonus points if you find someone in a distinctive wetsuit so you can easily keep tabs on them
  • Don't be afraid to tuck right in behind someone, even if it means you're constantly touching their feet.
  • If you're leading a pack - ease up and let the guy behind you take over
  • If your'e swimming side-by-side with someone - ease up and tuck in behind them
  • Know that the fastest line may not be the straightest line - if the pack is zig-zagging, stay with them - going alone in a straight line still may be slower
  • Make calculated surges - if you see a good pack, or good kicker ahead, put in a decent effort to get with them (this you can actually practice lane swimming - give someone a 10-15 second lead and close the gap)
  • If you are in a pack, and feel the pace is too slow - pull over and swim by yourself for a bit to get a real gauge of the pack's speed - you may be surprised that you can't hold that speed by yourself
  • Trust the people you are following - don't worry about sighting so often
  • Specific advice: for a 37 min half-iron swim, there are likely going to be many people around you. If you are in a self-seeded situation, plan to go with the 33-35 minute swimmers and get sucked along with them (maybe a practice 400m hard effort at the start of a few of your swims to get comfortable being immediately uncomfortable)
  • You could practice bilateral breathing in the pool (be comfortable breathing on both sides, that way you can keep tabs on who is beside/around you on both sides).

My credentials: Average swimmer in the pool, and lately after embracing the above, I seem to be coming out of the water with much-faster swimmers on less overall energy expenditure

....alternatively....

Accept a 37 minute swim, and look to shave 5 minutes off your run through smarter race management or improved run fitness.
Last edited by: bx3: Aug 26, 19 9:56
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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lassekk wrote:
So the normal thing when talking about becoming a faster swimmer is to achieve better technique if you are a bad/slow swimmer. This will of course require time and not something you change over night. But what if you only 14 swim sessions left before you hang up triathlon for a couple of years (half IM to end it all), would you advise that person differently? Would you focus more on power/stamina and just let them(me) plow through the water or does it even with that limited amount of time make sense to focus on technique?
Time commitment is 2 swims a week of 45-60min lenght for 7 weeks. Last half was 37 min in wetsuit.

Even if you don't plan any triathlons for 2-3 yrs, you could keep swimming and expand to swimming 4-7 days/wk since you won't be BR-ing as much. In this manner when you come back to tri you'll be a stronger swimmer. You've read of Dev Paul's progress, right??? No reason you could not do the same. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [bx3] [ In reply to ]
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Don't touch feet repeatedly. Maybe once or twice, but then back off just a bit. There is absolutely no need to be that close. At all. Period.


bx3 wrote:
Forget about trying to improve your swimming, and start learning how to "race" the swim portion of a triathlon.

Some tips and hints, in no particular order:
  • Remember that drafting in the swim is perfectly legal, and if not faster - certainly saves energy
  • Don't ever be swimming with no-one in front of you.
  • Look for heavy kickers - keep your eyes up and look for those massive glorious bubbles - bonus points if you find someone in a distinctive wetsuit so you can easily keep tabs on them
  • Don't be afraid to tuck right in behind someone, even if it means you're constantly touching their feet.
  • If you're leading a pack - ease up and let the guy behind you take over
  • If your'e swimming side-by-side with someone - ease up and tuck in behind them
  • Know that the fastest line may not be the straightest line - if the pack is zig-zagging, stay with them - going alone in a straight line still may be slower
  • Make calculated surges - if you see a good pack, or good kicker ahead, put in a decent effort to get with them (this you can actually practice lane swimming - give someone a 10-15 second lead and close the gap)
  • If you are in a pack, and feel the pace is too slow - pull over and swim by yourself for a bit to get a real gauge of the pack's speed - you may be surprised that you can't hold that speed by yourself
  • Trust the people you are following - don't worry about sighting so often
  • Specific advice: for a 37 min half-iron swim, there are likely going to be many people around you. If you are in a self-seeded situation, plan to go with the 33-35 minute swimmers and get sucked along with them (maybe a practice 400m hard effort at the start of a few of your swims to get comfortable being immediately uncomfortable)
  • You could practice bilateral breathing in the pool (be comfortable breathing on both sides, that way you can keep tabs on who is beside/around you on both sides).

My credentials: Average swimmer in the pool, and lately after embracing the above, I seem to be coming out of the water with much-faster swimmers on less overall energy expenditure

....alternatively....

Accept a 37 minute swim, and look to shave 5 minutes off your run through smarter race management or improved run fitness.

Karen ST Concierge
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [MadTownTRI] [ In reply to ]
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MadTownTRI wrote:
I think there is some good wisdom here, Dan.

So the same weekly distance, let's call it 6000 yards, spread over 1500y x 4 sessions will almost certainly improve one more than 3000y x 2 sessions. But why? Primarily a function of repetition? Ingraining good habits + feel for water?

Getting to the place where you are swimming more days in a given week than you are not swimming seems like a good goal for anyone trying to improve their swim. But it doesn't feel like the kind of 'quick hack' that OP is looking for. Intuitively, it makes sense. When I swim more, I feel better swimming. But i'm not sure why, exactly.
Almost certainly because form inevitably degrades with fatigue and then you are just practicing and ingraining bad form. Most age groupers do not have the form and experience to swim long sets without their already imperfect form degrading further.
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [STConcierge] [ In reply to ]
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No shit.

I’m generally pretty laid back, but if someone is “constantly” touching my feet in the swim, that’s basically asking me to dish out a swift kick in the face. Then I’ll feel bad about it later and it’ll ruin both of our days. Don’t do that.

STConcierge wrote:
Don't touch feet repeatedly. Maybe once or twice, but then back off just a bit. There is absolutely no need to be that close. At all. Period.


bx3 wrote:
Forget about trying to improve your swimming, and start learning how to "race" the swim portion of a triathlon.

Some tips and hints, in no particular order:
  • Remember that drafting in the swim is perfectly legal, and if not faster - certainly saves energy
  • Don't ever be swimming with no-one in front of you.
  • Look for heavy kickers - keep your eyes up and look for those massive glorious bubbles - bonus points if you find someone in a distinctive wetsuit so you can easily keep tabs on them
  • Don't be afraid to tuck right in behind someone, even if it means you're constantly touching their feet.
  • If you're leading a pack - ease up and let the guy behind you take over
  • If your'e swimming side-by-side with someone - ease up and tuck in behind them
  • Know that the fastest line may not be the straightest line - if the pack is zig-zagging, stay with them - going alone in a straight line still may be slower
  • Make calculated surges - if you see a good pack, or good kicker ahead, put in a decent effort to get with them (this you can actually practice lane swimming - give someone a 10-15 second lead and close the gap)
  • If you are in a pack, and feel the pace is too slow - pull over and swim by yourself for a bit to get a real gauge of the pack's speed - you may be surprised that you can't hold that speed by yourself
  • Trust the people you are following - don't worry about sighting so often
  • Specific advice: for a 37 min half-iron swim, there are likely going to be many people around you. If you are in a self-seeded situation, plan to go with the 33-35 minute swimmers and get sucked along with them (maybe a practice 400m hard effort at the start of a few of your swims to get comfortable being immediately uncomfortable)
  • You could practice bilateral breathing in the pool (be comfortable breathing on both sides, that way you can keep tabs on who is beside/around you on both sides).

My credentials: Average swimmer in the pool, and lately after embracing the above, I seem to be coming out of the water with much-faster swimmers on less overall energy expenditure

....alternatively....

Accept a 37 minute swim, and look to shave 5 minutes off your run through smarter race management or improved run fitness.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Do the Primary workouts from my 12 week course and then do 2 x 5000 yard fitness sessions.
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Without seeing you swim, it's hard to advise on technical issues. The #1 advice I can give is to exhale when your face is in the water. A lot of people don't do that, so when they turn their head they have to exhale and then inhale. That takes a lot of time and tends to cause over-rotation. #2 don't over-rotate. If both of your eyes are out of the water, you're over-rotating.

Drill-wise, I'd do some fist drills when you swim. That's my go-to for making sure to pull with my lats.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Just get fitter. You have almost no hope to change your technique in that time. And focus on practicing your T1 every day and shaving time off T1. You will make more savings shaving your T1 to get a pro like time than what you shave in the water. Sorry, that's the hard truth on 2x swims per week for 7 weeks

Thats what i thought, thanks!
So fitter is just pure sets where i would still focus on form? Or would you add just a few drills (1h crawl, fist crawl etc) or would that also be waste of time?
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [lassekk] [ In reply to ]
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Essentially, the way to improve as a swimmer is to commit to the process, it’s generally a slow gradual one. 14 workouts over 7 weeks isn’t allowing the process to work.

If you are truly going to quit triathlon in 7 weeks, and are only going to swim 2x per week, then I’ve of the mindset that it puts you in a no mans land. It’s not enough to get improvement but it’s still potentially taking away from bike and run.

My advice, either step up or cut back and accept that your swim won’t be great.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
MadTownTRI wrote:
I think there is some good wisdom here, Dan.

So the same weekly distance, let's call it 6000 yards, spread over 1500y x 4 sessions will almost certainly improve one more than 3000y x 2 sessions. But why? Primarily a function of repetition? Ingraining good habits + feel for water?

Getting to the place where you are swimming more days in a given week than you are not swimming seems like a good goal for anyone trying to improve their swim. But it doesn't feel like the kind of 'quick hack' that OP is looking for. Intuitively, it makes sense. When I swim more, I feel better swimming. But i'm not sure why, exactly.


the short answer is, i don't know why. i just know that. i have found a pretty good groove, lately. i swim usually around 1,800 yards per session. very occasionally i'll swim a 3,000 yard session, but only if i have a single set, or long swim, planned that specifically requires that many yards. otherwise, these shorter sessions give me plenty of time to get in quality work without me getting bored or stale.

i can speculate the following: i make more headway when i'm fresh, so, i get more done with more sessions of fewer yards. there's more of an opportunity for me to be in the water, absorbing the last workout, preparing for the next. my proprioception does not fade.

but also, i'm usually doing 2 or 3 workouts in a day, and if i don't keep them fairly short i don't perform well. i get too tired. so, i always start with a morning run. but it's short. so that i can still do a good swim at noon. or, i swim mid-morning and then run afterward. i can't do a top quality run if i'm too worn from the swim. and so forth.

i just find that my sweet spot, for improving in the water, is 4 to 5 times a week. 1 of those times, ideally, is a long swim, for time. 1,500 yards. 2,000 yards. eventually, when i'm at my fittest, 3,000 yards, because there's a "postal" swim masters holds for 3,000 yards, we're coming up to it, and monty and i have that sitting out there as a goal. those sustained swims are (for me) big medicine.

Uh Oh...
Looks like someone is taking DL Nats seriously :-)

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]
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stringcheese wrote:
Slowman wrote:
MadTownTRI wrote:
I think there is some good wisdom here, Dan.

So the same weekly distance, let's call it 6000 yards, spread over 1500y x 4 sessions will almost certainly improve one more than 3000y x 2 sessions. But why? Primarily a function of repetition? Ingraining good habits + feel for water?

Getting to the place where you are swimming more days in a given week than you are not swimming seems like a good goal for anyone trying to improve their swim. But it doesn't feel like the kind of 'quick hack' that OP is looking for. Intuitively, it makes sense. When I swim more, I feel better swimming. But i'm not sure why, exactly.


the short answer is, i don't know why. i just know that. i have found a pretty good groove, lately. i swim usually around 1,800 yards per session. very occasionally i'll swim a 3,000 yard session, but only if i have a single set, or long swim, planned that specifically requires that many yards. otherwise, these shorter sessions give me plenty of time to get in quality work without me getting bored or stale.

i can speculate the following: i make more headway when i'm fresh, so, i get more done with more sessions of fewer yards. there's more of an opportunity for me to be in the water, absorbing the last workout, preparing for the next. my proprioception does not fade.

but also, i'm usually doing 2 or 3 workouts in a day, and if i don't keep them fairly short i don't perform well. i get too tired. so, i always start with a morning run. but it's short. so that i can still do a good swim at noon. or, i swim mid-morning and then run afterward. i can't do a top quality run if i'm too worn from the swim. and so forth.

i just find that my sweet spot, for improving in the water, is 4 to 5 times a week. 1 of those times, ideally, is a long swim, for time. 1,500 yards. 2,000 yards. eventually, when i'm at my fittest, 3,000 yards, because there's a "postal" swim masters holds for 3,000 yards, we're coming up to it, and monty and i have that sitting out there as a goal. those sustained swims are (for me) big medicine.


Uh Oh...
Looks like someone is taking DL Nats seriously :-)

it's my current A race, bubba. i intend to suck feet, wheels, and wind ;-)

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: 14 swim sessions left in your tri "career" [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i intend to suck feet ;-)


There is a joke there somewhere...…(snicker)
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