I wouldn't do a bunch more mileage, but a lot of low 6 minute stuff on the treadmill. Keep the hard hill run, those are great for strength and leg speed coming down. If you handicap your previous 5k, you are just about a minute from breaking 40, so do it with speed. Also, seems like your weight is fine for your height, dont mess around there, keep your strength.

Add a recovery week once a month. Important to give the body some down time as we age up. Alternate hard and easy days or even 1 hard day running followed by 2 easy/recovery days.

Add some weights for arm strength to drive the legs as they tire later in the race. Optional weights for legs. Your weight ratio looks good now with your currently reported metrics. May benefit more to convert your perceived excess weight into muscles and keep the weight as is now.

Since you haven't done a race "in a really long time", you may want to jump in a 5K to remember the feel of a competitive race situation and know how to best control when your 10K comes up.

If you are a reactive racer, you should include some fartlek in your training as that's how you will race. However, and this is important, if you stay focused on a time objective, your best ally is proper pacing. Learn the feel of pace running at
;

• 6:00 minute per mile pace
• 6:15 minute per mile pace
• 6:30 minute per mile pace
• 6:45 minute per mile pace

You need 6:30 pace to reach your goal. Know when you are above it or below by feel. The watch of course helps too.

Consider your most challenging workouts the best to learn the feel for pace. Something like these may help you:

• Warm-up then 2 miles at 13:00 followed by a set of 3 x 800M at 3:15 and 3 x 800M at 3:30. Again, learn the feel for the pace. End with 3 x 150M strides/pick-ups and warm-down
• Warm-up then 3 miles at 19:30 followed by a set of 2 x 800M at 3:15 and 2 x 800M at 3:30. Again, learn the feel for the pace. End with 3 x 150M strides/pick-ups and warm-down
• Warm-up then 4 miles at 26:00 followed by a set of 1 x 800M at 3:15 and 1 x 800M at 3:30. Again, learn the feel for the pace. End with 3 x 150M strides/pick-ups and warm-down

You can do these in progressive weeks of each 4-week block. Variations off 600 meters to 1200 meters. Also, the first block of 12 weeks could see slower pace of 7:00 miles (and half that for the 800 meter runs), then increase in the second block of 12 weeks out to 6:45 pace mile, then hit the above for the last block of weeks.

Taper to mileage the last two weeks. Peak in speed the second week out from race day.

If in the northern hemisphere, factor in cooler weather as we get further into fall. You'll need a few more calories to stay warm and prevent sickness. If further north with potential snow and ice, be attuned to your running surfaces.

Good luck.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/tactics2faster-new

Thanks, Doug. My general week is:

Tempo, recovery, Speed, recovery, recovery, Long, off


Those mostly look like variations on tempo/threshold, yes? Rest interval somewhere in the 2-3 min range? I like the format.

Last open run race was a 5k in 2006. I do several Sprint/Oly tri a year. The idea for a tune up 5k or two is a good one. Thanks.

My best racing has always been done at 148 lbs. I'm a bit soft around the middle right now---I got squishy while I was busy being lazy. I know at some point in the next couple of weeks, calorie restriction will interfere with recovery. At that point, I'll make the change.

Yes, variations of tempo/threshold.

Interval of 2-3 minutes is fine or "do a lap" around the track if training there. If you train on the roads go by 2-3 minutes or mark off 400 meters on the road. The key is learning pacing on the main set and confidence in knowing it and then applying your defined pace on race day. The 150 meters pick-ups are where you gain raw speed. That speed converts on race day to making your 6:30 pace feel comfortable and not strained. I like your weight mgt plan. Let's us know how you go in the race.

I am very similar to you, however I am only 36. I have ran a best 5k of 20:41, and I would like to go sub 40 in the 10k. I am still fairly new to exercise, but I have been following the 80/20 triathlon plans. I haven't had a benchmark run yet since starting these, but I have a 5k in about 2 weeks, so hopefully I will see a sub 20 on that, and go from there.

---

- Jordan

My Strava

I'm about at the end of the first training block. It was a bit of a rough start, as it's been several months since I did any honest tempo/threshold work. I seem to have settled into a 6 day week, structured as follows:

Mon....4 miles easy (strides if I feel good)
Tue.....Tempo/threshold run detailed above
Wed....4 miles easy (w/ 6x40s strides)
Thur....8 miles moderate
Fri.......4 miles easy (w/ 6x20s strides)
Sat......12 mile hilly run pushing the hills

The first half week, I did about 50% of the threshold workout that Thursday. In the Texas heat that was kinda ugly....it was probably a bad idea to try that at noon.

The following Tuesday, since it was still hot, I opted to do the tempo work on the TM. That went much better and managed to complete the entire wk1 workout at the 7:00 pace for the threshold. Last Tuesday, I completed the wk2 threshold workout outdoors, managing 7:05 mpm threshold. I still felt pretty good after the workout was over. Tomorrow, I'll do the wk3 threshold workout.

Saturday, I did my hilly long run. I've been working on increasing the quantity of hills. I've got a ~1.5mi hilly section of road about 2.5 miles from home. So, I run over as a warmup...then run back and forth along this segment, until my quads are done. There's 4 hills along the length roughly 5% grade, maybe 50 feet up, or so. Saturday, I did 6.8 miles on this segment before heading home for a little over 12 miles in 1:40. As it turns out, I almost matched my PR on this hilly segment (missed it by 5s). I set that PR earlier this spring, contemporaneous with my 5k time above.

Thursday, I'm adding a dedicated speed workout (800s and 400s) that I will alternate with mile repeats every other week.

Finally, this weekend will be my off "week", because I'll be down in New Orleans doing some car racing. I may try and sneak in an easy 4 miler or two, otherwise I'll be "off" Friday-Sunday.

All in all, I'm feeling about on track. I'm not there yet, but things are moving quickly in the right direction...and I have 9 weeks to go. As I said, that first half-week was pretty tough and I wasn't too confident at that point. But this week with a 9 mile tempo run, 8 mile moderate run, 12 mile hilly run, as well as 3 4mile easy runs, I'm feeling a little more positive about the prospects. Easy is getting easier, and hard is getting faster.

ETA: So far the mild calorie restriction (~1 lb per week) hasn't been a problem---I'm recovered from one hard-effort before the next comes up. I'm down to 153, with no change in lean-mass (if you believe the bio-impedence thingy). However, I won't be surprised if the added intensity on Thursday's pushes me over that edge.

Tom:

Thanks for the update. You are definitely on track. No need to be "there" yet. That's race day. You're on plan with a 9 week count down. Good mix of run types and built in recovery. Good luck on the car racing. Definitely helps the reflexes when biking I'm sure.

The 1 lb reduction (3500 calories) with your intake for workout load and starting weight point is of little to no concern. You will trend to more lean muscle, especially with the hills you're doing.

The 12 mile run helps your base for now. You may want to consider dropping that down and focusing on the pace and align intervals with distance for your 10K.

Also, consider dropping the 20 & 40 strides on recovery days. Recovery days should be for recovery. Going fast for 20-40 meters won't help much to hit a time target. And if someone speeds up from behind you on a finishing kick, that distance leaves you little real estate to react and pass them back. Alternative would be 6x150's on your tempo and moderate days. Work up to strides and continue into top end speed (adjust for your age not how old you see yourself, we aren't teenagers any more). You know your race ready when you seamlessly move from your interval pace work into these "strides" with no straining. Make sense?

Stay hydrated in the heat. Your Texas weather will cool off as the year progresses. You know you will run faster at the same perceived effort in cooler weather. However, the legs will struggle if not getting workouts into your race goal time target because of running in the heat.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/tactics2faster-new

Thanks, I was think along those same lines, maybe in a couple weeks. That helps validate my thinking.


Again, I was having the same thought. I actually skipped them today, as I only do them when I feel good; and, today I was still a bit fatigued. I didn't want to risk not feeling good for the threshold work tomorrow.

The real reason I've been doing them is to prepare for the 800s and 400s at a similar pace, starting later this week. As you said, I'm no spring chicken, and I find I get sore when I first add something significantly different. But, even a small amount like the 3-6x strides for 50-150m for a week or two helps ease into it. That way I'll only be kinda sore (appropriately) after the first real speed work.




Yep. Thanks.


I'm familiar. I weigh before and after every workout, and track water loss by hour. Daily weigh in also tracks general hydration status, and I see a clear pattern across the week that coincides with my intensity and durations (total sweat loss).

We actually got a cool snap on Friday. Saturday was glorious at 50F!


Thats exactly why I moved the threshold stuff inside on the TM. I will do the same with the speed work if temps climb back up. At some point, there's no substitute for pace.

Thanks again. I really appreciate all the advice.

End of block #2, almost (actually will end on Saturday).

I dropped the 12m hilly run two weeks ago. After that last one, I had a twinge of pain and some cramping in my left soleus where it inserts into the knee/hamstring complex. I think I strained it slightly. That was two saturday's ago. Sunday's are my day off. I took that monday off also. Calf was better on tuesday; I did my pacing workout as per schedule. Having a repeat injury didn't seem worth the benefits from the hills. So, I've replaced the hilly run with mile repeats (1/4 mile recoveries), and moved things around a bit. that was kinda the plan anyway as mentioned above, but I probably would have done one or two more hilly runs before swapping them out. Current week looks like this:

Mon: pacing workout as above (just completed the 4mi version this week at high ~6:3x pace)
Tue: 60min moderate run
Wed: 40min recovery run
Thu: YxMile repeats with 1/4mile recovery
Fri: 40min recovery run
Sat: Zx800m (1/4 mile rec), Zx400m (1/4 mile rec), Zx150m strides (250m recovery), extended cool down
Sun: off

Pacing Workouts:
Due to weather and work constraints I had to do all of the pacing workouts on my TM this last block. As a result I was unsure of the real road-pace I was holding. Indicated foot-pod speed was ~6:20 pace. I did 4x1mi repeats today at 6:30 (avg) on the road. I could NOT have held that for 4 miles straight. Based on that, I think my indicated TM pace is about 15s faster than equivalent road pace. Thus my pacing workouts were probably closer to 6:35-38 "real-pace" (tm). Then again, this cycle the target pace was 6:45. So, I certainly seem to be on track...maybe slightly ahead.


Moderate Run:
I play this run by ear. Its either a 40min recovery run, or a longer moderate run...depending on how I feel. This week, I felt surprisingly good even after the pacing workout the day before. I had the time available, so I ran about 7 miles, in mid-zone2.


Recovery runs:
I bumped these up just a couple minutes to round them off at my target race time (from ~36m). No real reason....just makes my brain feel good. These are high Z1, HR, drifting into low Z2 by the end.

Mile Repeats:
Mile repeats are supposed to be at target race pace (6:30 or better). Last week I did the mile repeats for the first time; the plan was 3x1mi. I only managed 2 and 1/2 reps at 6:32 pace. Today, the plan was 4x1mi...and, I did all 4 at (6:33, 6:26, 6:29, 6:34), The 6:26 is my new, old-dude, training 1mile PR. Not that I've spent much time doing fast miles prior to this, when I have they were on the TM (which I've always excluded from PRs).

Speed Work:
Zx800m repeats start at target race pace, and subtract 5-10s (pace) for each repeat (eg: 6:30, 6:20, 6:15, 6:10, 6:00)
Zx400m repeats start at target race-pace-15s (6:15), and subtract 5s (pace) for each
Zx150m strides are at target-race-pace-60s.
I started with Z=4, add one each week.
I moved the speed work to Saturday so that I can go to the local track. I extend the cool down to get 10-11 miles. I recover better from this workout than I do from the hilly run that it replaced.

Weekly mileage is still hovering around 38-42 mpw. But, I'm really focused on trading pace and number of repeats back and forth. The mpw are just a consequence. Its sorta surprising how fast you adapt. One week X seems excrutiating. The next week, X+1 seems managable. The week after that, X+2 and the pace doesn't seem fast enough. Tighten the screws, rinse and repeat.

I don't really feel the need for a down "week". But, maybe that's because something or other conspires to an extra day off every now and again. Either a work related event, a family event, or like the calf-strain comes along and I end up with a 5 day run week instead of 6. I've got another race-car event next saturday...so, I'll miss my "speed day". I'll probably just take Sunday off as normal and call that my "off week" returning to normal workouts on Monday.

Body Comp:
Current weight = 150lbs
Bioimpedance bf% = 12.7%. Typically for me, when the PT does a multi-point caliper measurement he gets about 2.5 pts lower than my tanita.

Race day (21 December): 6 weeks and 2 days.

Tom:

Dude, making really good progress. Building endurance, strength, and speed based on your "next week, x+1" statement. That's how the body should work for you.

Good to learn you measured the treadmill to actual road running differential. That will prepare you for your 6:30 race pace on race day.

For the end of block off/recovery week, think of this of preventive maintenance. In preparation for a fast race, which is your main target, you don't want to get warned down and then recover. You want to recover before you get warned down or worse, breakdown. You want to steadily bring your body to peak for race day. Let's relate to your motor racing. Do you change the oil after it gets dirty, thicker, and filled with contaminants and then contributes to a blown engine during the race or do you change the oil before it needs to to minimize any strain on the engine during max output in a race?

Also, the recovery week serves as a template for your taper week. Most athletes don't think of it that way and don't adequately taper the days before the race. What racers do is ease into a race and then explode with speed and distance over the full course. Over-trained participants show up on race day, blast out in the race, blow up before the finish line, and wonder why they did not get that coveted PR. Hmmmm, wonder why.

Your workout adjustments based on how you feel gives you lots of flexibility. Also shows you have a lot of self-awareness in when and how to adjust. Most people these days call those junk miles but they serve an extremely valuable purpose to help the body recover, help the body tolerate the faster miles which are harder on the muscles and joints, they help maintain or reduce body weight, and they provide discipline and structure to the workout week. I would add for you, don't get too caught up in how many total miles you did for the week or more detailed, how many miles ran in moderate/recovery or Zone 1,2,or 3. Think of the need more to the classification of purpose. than micro Zones and mileage.

Weight is within range. If the legs start to hurt and your losing weight, then you are reaching negative return level on building muscle, while losing weight. Possibly burning muscle instead of fat to shed those other two target pounds. Pay attention and adjust if necessary, to maintain weight, strength, and be pain-free. You should be able to know the difference between joint and connection strain pains from the tired, burn muscle pain.

Your speed work out will make you a better hill runner. You can return to that in January. No need to push the calf strain on the hills.

Finally, I wouldn't worry about not hitting the 4 mile run at pace. That's what race day is for though for 6 miles. You're still six weeks out. It's hard doing that stuff solo, easier with training or race mates. Also you're not tapering and you haven't practice that stuff before. Second go around is easier. Running with others is easier. What you could do is reduce your recovery to 300 meters instead of your current 400M. Walk/jog 150M on the track and then backtrack, start your next Mile repeat on the corners of the track, or walk/jog half the track and cut across the field. In these last five weeks, more important to know the pace. So if you choose to drop recover to 300M and you can't reach the target pace time, back off and return to 400M or increase.

https://www.palmtreesahead.com/
https://www.palmtreesahead.com/coaching-style

Well... It's not exactly what I wanted, I did not go sub 40. I did however get 3rd OA, and 1st AG (M50-59). 1st and 2nd OA were both in the M20-29 AG. So, I guess I represented the old guys, pretty well.

The last 5 weeks did not go according to plan, so it is what it is. I sprained my groin working on the car at the start of the last training block. I had to take a week fully off... Zero running. The data would suggest that set me back by a full training block. It took 3 weeks to regain the form I had before the groin injury. And, I'm not really sure I fully did.

Then two weeks out I had an unscheduled business trip, and I lost a couple training days. I wasn't stressed about that as that was the start of my taper. But then upon return, I came down with a head cold or something. Knocked me off my feet last Fri-sun. I tried to run on Monday, but it was fugly. A little better on Tuesday, and again better on Wed. Thu / Fri were just short easy runs with a few short race pace efforts. I wasn't really sure what to expect, as I couldn't hold target race.

Anyway, official result was 43:13. Garmin and Google both say the course was long by 0.1. The 10k finish was back through the walking crowd, so that didn't make for much of a finishing kick. 1st place went to the grass, I was in 2nd at that point and opted to split the crowd---maube the wrong choice. 3rd managed to catch me, maybe running in my wake... Dunno. Anyway, he got about 5s ahead and I couldn't close the gap. The finish was up a 7% grade....i had nothing left for that.

HR per PACE was way off today (pace slow, hr high). Not sure what that was about. I've still got a bit of a sore throat, otherwise I feel fine. Maybe I'm not quite over whatever gunk I contracted in Nashville. Legs felt fine, but I definitely felt like I was against the Rev limiter so to speak in my chest. I didn't check HR during the race, just pace.

Now to find another 10k and revise my plan to break 40.

Tom: Missing target by less than 10% with the three body-physical barriers in the last four weeks is a win. But I get it, not the win you wanted. Repair the body (your HR to PE shows this as a lingering issue). Recover mentally. Find a race. You have a great base. Train the last block. The pace, strength, and speed will be there for you next race day. Doug

Read your thread to catch up...some small bits of advice. But first - you really are not far at all off of your goal, as the other poster said. You lost a whole week of training to an injury, a few days to life stuff, then got sick. Not exactly an ideal build from that perspective.

I would bet that if you take the next few months, maybe 8-12wks, and do a block of averaging 6-7 runs/week, 1h/day (on average!), with one threshold 20-40min strong effort midweek and a longer long run, you would crush your goal. Averaging 1h/day was the best thing I ever did for my running, and there's a lot of ways to skin the cat with getting to that average. You could go simple, 1h/day every single day. For me, when in shape, the key was that sometimes that hour would be 9-9.5mi of progression running, and some days it was 7mi of jogging (I was in low/sub1:20 HM shape at the time). You could go 60min on M/T/TH/F, 75min for a midweek long run on W (a good time to do that threshold/strong effort workout), then a 1h45m LR on Sat or Sun. One that worked well for me was an hour every weekday, and 2h on either Saturday or Sunday, with no running the other weekend day. I would usually do a few (not many at all..maybe 3-6?) 20-30sec fast pickups on my jogs to keep some leg speed.

I didn't catch anywhere in the thread if you're still biking or swimming. I have always thought that the other two sports contributed positively to my running. I like to hit 2-3 rides of 45-60min when I'm running a lot if I have the time, and 2-3 swims (also if I have the time). The running is the skeleton of the plan, at a minimum I do that. The rides will usually have 30-40min of tempo in them, and the swims have some kicking and sprinting to maintain technique. I like to do some kicking with fins to strengthen and stretch my ankles and shins, anecdotal but I think that it helps.

If you want to, alternate weeks of doing the 20-40min strong effort one week and 6-8x800m hard the next week (but still get in the whole distance/time goal for that day). After you adjust to whatever your LR distance is, feel free to make the end of it a progression for 10-30min, descending down to MP or HMP if you feel good.

I picked up training this way from a poster on these boards and transformed from a permanently injured runner thinking I wasn't built to run longer races (anything over 5mi) to being able to race at 10mi+ pretty competitively and never notice any real recovery deficit (other than taking a "jog" day the day or two following an effort), whereas before I'd race 5k and be shattered for nearly a week (not enough volume!).

---

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

Thanks, Rucker.

I agree with you. I'm not far off from that volume now. Over this build I averaged 145mi per month or 36 mpw. That included the missed days, and averages to 5 hrs / week. A more typical week is 40-50mi, right in the 6.5 hr range you suggest. I'd like to build that to 50+ avg instead of peak---that would coincide with 7+ hrs avg.

I'm also a 6-7x devotee. I transitioned to a BarryP type of approach 3 years ago (as a recovering injury prone runner). I haven't had a significant RRI since---the rare niggle is about all, and those are very rare. I never would have considered a week like the above with 13miles at 6:30+ pace. A steady diet of that would have left me in PT for months back in the day.

I haven't completely decided how to tweak things yet. I do think I'll return to a dedicated long, hilly run. I was seeing better weekly progression when that was in the mix. I also think a bit of dedicated aerobic base (longer steady state sub-threshold) work might be a good plan.

I'm not swimming or biking at the moment. I was before I started this, but I decided to go "all-in" on running for this attempt. I'll give that a think. The nice thing about running is how easily it dissolves into the background of life. Just grab the shoes and go. Everything else takes a bit of prep... And more time.

Again, thanks for the thoughts!

This year, after 7 years without running, but swimming, I got back. I have been running 2-3 days per week the last 6 months combining with swimming and some ocasionally biking. Yesterday I had a chat with the colleagues of my triathlon squad... PBs are something to work on in a medium -long term basis. You run faster than me...I think my 5k must be around 21.30, but does not translate into 43:30 or 44 directly in the 10k. Every second per km is a battle and I would not be obsessed with reaching my PB so soon. In my case, I am trying to run consistently, in progression. I usually run negative in races because if I feel well I always have time to pace up....If I start too fast, I struggle and it is something I cannot stand now as I am 40 and my best days have gone by. I dont feel like struggling for 20m....
I love cross training ...I dont know wether you are proned to get injured but it is something basic for me. 3 days for my run, over soil tracks, and my knees really appreciate it. I prefer to run less and be healthy than run more and get injured.... I am not a light guy (not fat either), but each one should know what works and what does not work for oneself.
Good luck with your targets

---

Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Hi juanillio-

Welcome back to running. I came back after a similar lay off 4 years ago. 20 years ago I was an injury prone runner. But, when I came back I picked up the habit of running every day. I run 6x per week. I spent 3 years just running easy, with almost zero intensity... And no running injuries. I did the 100 /100 last year taking one off day for every 30 days of running.

If you are injury prone, I would suggest a program of more frequent running would actually help. The key is to keep it short, and easy and build more miles slowly. If you haven't... Look up the BarryP method here on ST.

Thid is the first year that I've done any significant intensity and any speed work at all. But as part of this build I have been doing 13miles of speed work and high intensity as part of a 45mi week. Zero running injuries, I had one niggle from running hills that I was able to run through and healed in two days.

Best days behind you? At 40? Uh no. I'm 51... I don't think my best days are quite behind me, yet... At least, not my adult life days. It's getting harder, sure. But, I'm not quite done.

Eta: I'm on the smaller side at 148 lbs (67kg).