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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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Glad Moscon didn’t didn’t win. While Valverde doped (allegedly), Moscon just doesn’t seem like that good of a human being.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Really? How many sprints have you done after 258k?


exactly. not to mention near 4500 meters of climbing (aka, half-Everesting)

man, really was pulling for Tommy D there...

Wood did Canada proud. Did Bauer ever win a medal at World's?

I thought Bauer got a medal in the 1986 Worlds fiasco with Criquelion. And he got bronze at the Barcelona Worlds (1984 I believe) after he took silver at the LA Olympics road race.

As for today, Woods did everything he could. He single handedly manufactured an almost guaranteed medal on the last 28 percent climb until suddenly it was not assured when Dumoulin ITT'd back on. I kind of thought Dumoulin would just ride over the top and try to out TT them but he caught them too early.

Woods' medal is exciting for us because he used to run for the local track club and it was a bunch of local fast tri geeks who also ran for the track club who roped Woods into going for a few rides when he got injured running. The rest of the story you guys know, so we have a big interest when Woods does well
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [Ron_Burgundy] [ In reply to ]
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It was Valverde’s time. Seventh podium at worlds, first time on top at last. A glorious way to start stepping out... after a season dressing the rainbow jersey.

Sr. Salitre
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [SrSalitre] [ In reply to ]
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SrSalitre wrote:
It was Valverde’s time. Seventh podium at worlds, first time on top at last. A glorious way to start stepping out... after a season dressing the rainbow jersey.

I am as happy about Valverde winning as I am about when Vino won the gold in London 2012, which is "not reallly that happy" given the former doper status. But if we accept that pro cyclists use dope like pro triathletes draft the grey zone and they treat a doping bust like getting nailed for drafting, sit in the sin bin and then come back to racing, then sure, pretty cool for Valverde. I guess I have not totally made the leap that I equate a sin bin sit out for a doping bust to be like a sin bin sit out for drafting. At least for now. How the cycling media treats former dopers is quite different from how the tri media treats former dopers too. But whatever, it was an awesome race however you cut it.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Personally, I think we are beating a dead horse on this. Pro cycling, it is what it is. And we pretty much agree that, any way you look at it, Bala (bullet) has been consistently throwing sensational performances day in day out...

Sr. Salitre
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'm with you on Valverde. Maybe Fuentes should get to stand on the podium with him. I know Valverde challenged it as they always do - but DNA is pretty strong evidence....and this is blood doping, about as bad as doping gets. Christian VdV doing the commentary on the olympic channel couldn't really mention it given his past (i actually think he and Sherwen have done a great job all week. Can't be easy commentating for hours each day all in the same location).

i guess it is a bit like life in general. Those who like Movistar or Valverde in particular give them the benefit of the doubt or just treat it as a different era.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [Carl Spackler] [ In reply to ]
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Carl Spackler wrote:
Glad for Valverde, he’s been so close so many times. He’s one of the most crafty riders and put it to use today.

Wow, really surprised to hear this from you. Given the riders in the final selection I was gutted to see someone from the old guard win. Kudos to Fuentes.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
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It's difficult to set aside the past, but I've really come to be a Valverde fan. I'm super happy for him today - not that a World Championship is ever 'deserved', but he has been a top competitor for the Worlds and on the podium there many times. He's had a good year, really motivating some races. That is on top of a number of pretty-to-very-good years recently, all while increasingly becoming the 'old man' of the peloton. His performance - and tenacity as he ages - is pretty impressive. That might be the very reason for some to be critical, but, still, I'm pleased with the result. He had a terrific VaE, and presumably came into the Worlds on good form. One of the hardest Worlds courses in recent memory. It's hard to be unhappy about the outcome if you are a cycling fan, I think. Others will have future opportunities. This might have been AV's last best chance.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [M----n] [ In reply to ]
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M----n wrote:
That was an awesome ride by Woods. Great finish. He looked so much happier with his bronze than Bardet did with his silver!

Medvec VH, Madey SF, & Gilovich T (1995). When less is more: counterfactual thinking and satisfaction among Olympic medalists. Journal of personality and social psychology, 69 (4), 603-10 PMID: 7473022

Matsumoto D, & Willingham B (2006). The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat: spontaneous expressions of medal winners of the 2004 Athens Olympic Games. Journal of personality and social psychology, 91 (3), 568-81 PMID: 16938038


https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...than-silver-winners/


-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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Woods, amazing ride.
Credit Valeffingverde, if I have to.
TD, damn, thought he had one more kick.
Pinot, marked every threat all day. Great ride.
Bardet, ditto, then some. Alaphillipe has to feel gutted. The French played it well, but that’s racing.
Britton, conti pro in the break all day. Oh Canada!
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [giorgitd] [ In reply to ]
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giorgitd wrote:
It's difficult to set aside the past, but I've really come to be a Valverde fan. I'm super happy for him today - not that a World Championship is ever 'deserved', but he has been a top competitor for the Worlds and on the podium there many times. He's had a good year, really motivating some races. That is on top of a number of pretty-to-very-good years recently, all while increasingly becoming the 'old man' of the peloton. His performance - and tenacity as he ages - is pretty impressive. That might be the very reason for some to be critical, but, still, I'm pleased with the result. He had a terrific VaE, and presumably came into the Worlds on good form. One of the hardest Worlds courses in recent memory. It's hard to be unhappy about the outcome if you are a cycling fan, I think. Others will have future opportunities. This might have been AV's last best chance.

Agree with you on the above. Six times on the podium but never on the top step. And nice to see Oscar Freire there. And Niro Quintana happy for his trade teammate. Bardet - Not happy!!

And how cool was it to see Peter Sagan present the gold medal to AV. And boy, does AV have cute kids!

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
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rich_m wrote:
I'm with you on Valverde. Maybe Fuentes should get to stand on the podium with him. I know Valverde challenged it as they always do - but DNA is pretty strong evidence....and this is blood doping, about as bad as doping gets. Christian VdV doing the commentary on the olympic channel couldn't really mention it given his past (i actually think he and Sherwen have done a great job all week. Can't be easy commentating for hours each day all in the same location).

i guess it is a bit like life in general. Those who like Movistar or Valverde in particular give them the benefit of the doubt or just treat it as a different era.

To some degree I am OK with treating it as another era, but here is the problem....cycling fans get all bent out of joint if Sky wins pushing marginal gains and give a massive pass to the likes of Contador, Valverde, Vino/Astana. It's this double standard floating around the fan base. Either accept that there was high octane doping then. ultra high octane doping in the time of Pantani/Riis, high Octane doping in the time of Indurain, and moderately high octane doping in the time of Stephen Roche (WTF, the guy won the Giro, the TdF and UCI worlds in 1987 2 years after Moser was doped to the nines on blood stuff for the Mexico City World Hour record) and just watch it for what it is, or get bent out of joint about everyone in all eras.

I'd have preferred if Bardet, Woods or Dumoulin won just because of the Fuentes connection on Valverde. And it's not so much that Valverde was with Fuentes....he seems to magically have moved on when others who went to Fuentes really crumbled because of it and their careers were toast. Not sure what he's done after being on blood bags to keep winning like this...perhaps he's on nothing and the peloton just slowed down to human levels. If so, that would be awesome. The lack of snap in anyone's legs for the last climb today and for the sprint kind of points towards maybe everyone mainly on bread and water.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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He rode the best race, and was most crafty in finale. Not my favorite rider but that era was what it was; IMO can’t really like the game and hate the system because the latter is as complicit as any rider. Plus, doping alone doesn’t win someone a WC.

Would have been more happy for Bardet or TD or Woods to win but they didn’t. Hopefully their day comes.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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SuperDave wrote:
M----n wrote:

That was an awesome ride by Woods. Great finish. He looked so much happier with his bronze than Bardet did with his silver!


Medvec VH, Madey SF, & Gilovich T (1995). When less is more: counterfactual thinking and satisfaction among Olympic medalists. Journal of personality and social psychology, 69 (4), 603-10 PMID: 7473022

Matsumoto D, & Willingham B (2006). The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat: spontaneous expressions of medal winners of the 2004 Athens Olympic Games. Journal of personality and social psychology, 91 (3), 568-81 PMID: 16938038


https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/...than-silver-winners/


-SD

I think Woods gave it all he had to wittle down everyone on the 28 percent grade to manufacture his medal. I THINK he may have already declared victory when he started the descent with only 3 riders. Maybe he did not care what color medal he gets (by the way, here in Canada, we have this bad habit of getting excited about second and third place....it is what happens to a national psyche when you live next door to the most powerful sporting, economic, financial and innovation juggernaut in the history of mankind). In China and in the US you guys count golds.

I am not sure if he was happy "just having a medal at the top of the climb" but I would guess that the answer was yes. Its almost like you have to really hate getting silver and bronze to even have a chance at gold.

On the Tom Doumoulin front the guy was silver at Giro, Silver at theTdF and Silver at the UCI World's TT. I don't think he is entirely happy with all that, but maybe I am wrong. He gave it everything and then some, to get gold today and came up with nothing. But I am guessing for Dumoulin another 2nd or 3rd was the same as 4th and not winning.

I don't know when else Bardet and Woods get another worlds course they can win on. 4000m+ of climbing is as good as a course as they could get.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I'm watching now. Did CVV just say Woods was a sub 4 minute miler? That's no joke if true.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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ironclm wrote:
giorgitd wrote:
It's difficult to set aside the past, but I've really come to be a Valverde fan. I'm super happy for him today - not that a World Championship is ever 'deserved', but he has been a top competitor for the Worlds and on the podium there many times. He's had a good year, really motivating some races. That is on top of a number of pretty-to-very-good years recently, all while increasingly becoming the 'old man' of the peloton. His performance - and tenacity as he ages - is pretty impressive. That might be the very reason for some to be critical, but, still, I'm pleased with the result. He had a terrific VaE, and presumably came into the Worlds on good form. One of the hardest Worlds courses in recent memory. It's hard to be unhappy about the outcome if you are a cycling fan, I think. Others will have future opportunities. This might have been AV's last best chance.


Agree with you on the above. Six times on the podium but never on the top step. And nice to see Oscar Freire there. And Niro Quintana happy for his trade teammate. Bardet - Not happy!!

And how cool was it to see Peter Sagan present the gold medal to AV. And boy, does AV have cute kids!

a pity that they can't hold a candle to his dog Piti (for those curious, that's provenance of the name on the blood bag)

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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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SuperDave wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Glad for Valverde, he’s been so close so many times. He’s one of the most crafty riders and put it to use today.


Wow, really surprised to hear this from you. Given the riders in the final selection I was gutted to see someone from the old guard win. Kudos to Fuentes.

Valverde is a great rider. Period. He deserved this win and worked hard for it.

Do you think he was doping when he was winning everything as a junior? No, he wasn't. He was one of the biggest talents of his generation, which happened to be a generation where, for a time, all the guys at the top level were doping.

Some of us can look beyond that and recognize a great rider. Apparently some can't.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [eb] [ In reply to ]
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eb wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Glad for Valverde, he’s been so close so many times. He’s one of the most crafty riders and put it to use today.


Wow, really surprised to hear this from you. Given the riders in the final selection I was gutted to see someone from the old guard win. Kudos to Fuentes.


Valverde is a great rider. Period. He deserved this win and worked hard for it.

Do you think he was doping when he was winning everything as a junior? No, he wasn't. He was one of the biggest talents of his generation, which happened to be a generation where, for a time, all the guys at the top level were doping.

Some of us can look beyond that and recognize a great rider. Apparently some can't.

Replace Valverde in the sentence above with 007, or Ullrich, or Vino, or Basso or Contador and we can say the same thing :-)
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [eb] [ In reply to ]
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eb wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Glad for Valverde, he’s been so close so many times. He’s one of the most crafty riders and put it to use today.


Wow, really surprised to hear this from you. Given the riders in the final selection I was gutted to see someone from the old guard win. Kudos to Fuentes.


Valverde is a great rider. Period. He deserved this win and worked hard for it.

Do you think he was doping when he was winning everything as a junior? No, he wasn't. He was one of the biggest talents of his generation, which happened to be a generation where, for a time, all the guys at the top level were doping.

Some of us can look beyond that and recognize a great rider. Apparently some can't.

and some of us know of names such as Giles Deleon, whose promising career (winner of Giro di Lombardia) was robbed short, as he choose to quit instead of partake in blood doping/EPO

I'll only say that Valverde is nowhere near as annoying as Vino, but that's not saying much
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
eb wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Glad for Valverde, he’s been so close so many times. He’s one of the most crafty riders and put it to use today.


Wow, really surprised to hear this from you. Given the riders in the final selection I was gutted to see someone from the old guard win. Kudos to Fuentes.


Valverde is a great rider. Period. He deserved this win and worked hard for it.

Do you think he was doping when he was winning everything as a junior? No, he wasn't. He was one of the biggest talents of his generation, which happened to be a generation where, for a time, all the guys at the top level were doping.

Some of us can look beyond that and recognize a great rider. Apparently some can't.


Replace Valverde in the sentence above with 007, or Ullrich, or Vino, or Basso or Contador and we can say the same thing :-)
other than the psycopa7h 007 and the ego-maniacal Vino, the others riders were more or less likeable to a certain extent. All of them bowed out though, and weren't racing anywhere near the form of Valverde in their advanced age. That's the main beef I have with Valverde, still smugly laughing his way onto the podium despite being 38. Contador was a shell of his former self at 34, ditto for Basso... The next generation deserves better. One may say that their chances will come, but for a race that often favors the classics specialist and the power sprinters, I'm just not sure it's true. Last time there was a course this selective was almost a generation ago...

eb wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Glad for Valverde, he’s been so close so many times. He’s one of the most crafty riders and put it to use today.


Wow, really surprised to hear this from you. Given the riders in the final selection I was gutted to see someone from the old guard win. Kudos to Fuentes.


Valverde is a great rider. Period. He deserved this win and worked hard for it.

Do you think he was doping when he was winning everything as a junior? No, he wasn't. He was one of the biggest talents of his generation, which happened to be a generation where, for a time, all the guys at the top level were doping.

Some of us can look beyond that and recognize a great rider. Apparently some can't.


and some of us know of names such as Gilles Delion, whose promising career (winner of Giro di Lombardia) was robbed short, as he choose to quit instead of partake in blood doping/EPO. Heck, I mispelled his name the first time, and google didn't even have a suggestion for him. That's how anonymous he is.

I'll only say that Valverde is nowhere near as annoying as Vino, but that's not saying much
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [eb] [ In reply to ]
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I didn’t say he wasn’t great. No doubt he’s had an incredible couple of seasons at the twilight of his career. I would have preferred to have seen anyone else in that group win, surely they are also great having finished on the same time.

All the top guys were not doping. Stop using that as an excuse for cheating. Another great Spaniard was overlooked for leadership in the past not because of a lack of ability but because he was known to be clean and outspoken against dopers and those who aided them; couldn’t have him around. Who’d he knock of the podium in ‘03, ‘05, ‘06, ‘12, ‘13, ‘14? Which of his countryman didn’t start at Worlds because of his participation? What of his ‘09 Vuelta win, only weeks before his two year ban?

If a snapshot of the 7 hours of racing today is the only backdrop used for a deserving winner than AV proved to be the best today.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
eb wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Glad for Valverde, he’s been so close so many times. He’s one of the most crafty riders and put it to use today.


Wow, really surprised to hear this from you. Given the riders in the final selection I was gutted to see someone from the old guard win. Kudos to Fuentes.


Valverde is a great rider. Period. He deserved this win and worked hard for it.

Do you think he was doping when he was winning everything as a junior? No, he wasn't. He was one of the biggest talents of his generation, which happened to be a generation where, for a time, all the guys at the top level were doping.

Some of us can look beyond that and recognize a great rider. Apparently some can't.


Replace Valverde in the sentence above with 007, or Ullrich, or Vino, or Basso or Contador and we can say the same thing :-)

other than the psycopa7h 007 and the ego-maniacal Vino, the others riders were more or less likeable to a certain extent. All of them bowed out though, and weren't racing anywhere near the form of Valverde in their advanced age. That's the main beef I have with Valverde, still smugly laughing his way onto the podium despite being 38. Contador was a shell of his former self at 34, ditto for Basso... The next generation deserves better. One may say that their chances will come, but for a race that often favors the classics specialist and the power sprinters, I'm just not sure it's true. Last time there was a course this selective was almost a generation ago...

eb wrote:
SuperDave wrote:
Carl Spackler wrote:
Glad for Valverde, he’s been so close so many times. He’s one of the most crafty riders and put it to use today.


Wow, really surprised to hear this from you. Given the riders in the final selection I was gutted to see someone from the old guard win. Kudos to Fuentes.


Valverde is a great rider. Period. He deserved this win and worked hard for it.

Do you think he was doping when he was winning everything as a junior? No, he wasn't. He was one of the biggest talents of his generation, which happened to be a generation where, for a time, all the guys at the top level were doping.

Some of us can look beyond that and recognize a great rider. Apparently some can't.


and some of us know of names such as Gilles Delion, whose promising career (winner of Giro di Lombardia) was robbed short, as he choose to quit instead of partake in blood doping/EPO. Heck, I mispelled his name the first time, and google didn't even have a suggestion for him. That's how anonymous he is.

I'll only say that Valverde is nowhere near as annoying as Vino, but that's not saying much

Well on the vino front, I think he was close to Valverde's current age (38) at London 2012 (6 years ago and Vino is 45-49 now). In any case we get another dosage of Vino in 2 weeks at Kona.


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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Its almost like you have to really hate getting silver and bronze to even have a chance at gold.

i think this is pretty crucial - valverde had been 6 times silver and bronze, once he got himself into a podium position he was always going to do whatever it took to get the right colour. of course he would win a sprint from that group 95% anyway but to me the way he lead it out speaks of how much he was unwilling to risk anyone getting a jump on him. he made sure of it, in particular not wanting to let TD get a chance to sit in and launch.

to me, valverde is a worthy successor to sagan - the more climbing oriented equivalent as a rider that dominates across a variety of races with outstanding consistency and clinical racing. that he had never won worlds was an aberration, though indicative of how unique the worlds race is on the calendar
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
and some of us know of names such as Giles Deleon, whose promising career (winner of Giro di Lombardia) was robbed short, as he choose to quit instead of partake in blood doping/EPO

I'll only say that Valverde is nowhere near as annoying as Vino, but that's not saying much

Fair enough, but can you blame the doping culture on Valverde? Why single him out?

And what is it about Valverde that you find annoying? The guy is not particularly outspoken, he just quietly rides his bike.
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Re: *****Road Worlds (spoilers) [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
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SuperDave wrote:
I didn’t say he wasn’t great. No doubt he’s had an incredible couple of seasons at the twilight of his career. I would have preferred to have seen anyone else in that group win, surely they are also great having finished on the same time.

All the top guys were not doping. Stop using that as an excuse for cheating. Another great Spaniard was overlooked for leadership in the past not because of a lack of ability but because he was known to be clean and outspoken against dopers and those who aided them; couldn’t have him around. Who’d he knock of the podium in ‘03, ‘05, ‘06, ‘12, ‘13, ‘14? Which of his countryman didn’t start at Worlds because of his participation? What of his ‘09 Vuelta win, only weeks before his two year ban?

If a snapshot of the 7 hours of racing today is the only backdrop used for a deserving winner than AV proved to be the best today.

If you know exactly when and where he was doping why don't you tell us? Other than Puerto, 13 years ago, what have you got?

I don't see why you feel the need to call out another poster for applauding a great win by a great rider. But obviously you have strong feelings about this.
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