(time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most?

Nov 7, 18 5:00

Post #1 of 20 (1704 views)

Hi,

long time lurker, first time poster, so be gentle :)

tl;dr: What do I loose out if instead of 3x60 mins sweet spot trainerroad workouts I do 5-6x45 aerobic endurance trainer rides, if the weekly total TSS is about the same (200ish). Last off season I did around 160-180 weekly TSS (when I prepared for oly tris) plus swims & runs.

our second baby is due soon, which means (among other things) that
a) I'm not planning any races for next year (if life allows, there could be (local) 20k TTs or sprint/oly tris, but decision will be made in the last minute essentially)
b) likely I'll be even more time crunched than I am currently.
c) let's not talk about sleep :)

As I don't want to leave the house for training (should I be needed for the family, happy to interrupt the workout), cycling (trainer) only it is for a while (which is good, 'coz I could do with some improvement there)

Looking at the trainerroad training plans, they tend to favor at least 60-90 min long sessions for most base training plans, depending on volume, around 3/4 times per week. Problem is I can't fit in 3x60 mins consistently, but likely would be able to do 5-6 x 30 or 45 mins sessions

The sweet spot base plan (substituting 60 min workouts instead of the 90 min long ones) gives a weekly TSS of 195-215. If I build 6x45 mins endurance (aerobic) plan with some 20 sec sprints thrown in, it would give 217 weekly TSS, while the 6x30 mins gives 126. Doing 3 30 mins endurance, 3 30 mins sweet spots rides would give me 200 weekly TSS etc.

I understand the preference for sweet spot base training over traditional aerobic riding is that one would need more stress to have an adaptation, thus most people would need 6-12-16 hours of riding per week to see any benefit. However, I haven't cycled (trained) since July (marathon training block) and the weekly TSS would be around the same as 3x60 mins sweet spot, it should provide some training stress. I'm leaning towards aerobic endurance short rides, as those are 'ok' to interrupt/resume, in contrast to more intense workouts (a criss cross interval interrupted/restarted is more time consuming, as I would need to 'rewind' and warm up again).

So, would I see 'similar' (or at least useful) gains from the more frequent, less taxing rides?

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 5:22

Post #2 of 20 (1667 views)

I would definitely do SS over aerobic if your rides are only going to be 30-45 min. Aerobic generally works if you can do a ton of it.

Pick a sweet spot plan and then do the 30-45 minute variation of the planned workout. Might require doing the low volume then repeating a couple of the workouts every week.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 5:26

Post #3 of 20 (1657 views)

Sean,

how would you handle interruptions? e.g.: baby wakes up and needs a diaper change in the middle of the first interval. How do I resume the workout after this longer unplanned break?

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 5:30

Post #4 of 20 (1654 views)

You can do it one of 2 ways now. Either just pause the workout and come back to it. Or end the workout and restart it later, and you now have the ability to scan forward into the workout to start where you left off. I haven’t tried that yet but remember them talking about it on the podcast.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 5:33

Post #5 of 20 (1646 views)

Ok I just tried it in the app. Before the ride starts you can slide the yellow line to wherever you want to start. Also once in the ride if you pause the ride you can slide it again, so if you want to jump back to start at the beginning of an interval you can do so.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 5:50

Post #6 of 20 (1613 views)

(much appreciate your answers, I'm asking more questions so that I get a better understanding of the physiological impact )

oh, cool it's so easy tech wise!

Physiologically, is it a problem to restart an interval? Do I need to warm up again beforehand? I.e.: I wouldn't hesitate to jump back at 50-70% of FTP, but higher might be problematic without warming up again (thus would require more total time to finish the workout). Also, one of the progressions with sweet spots is to have shorter and shorter recoveries, so if I restart the 2nd interval after a 10-15-30 mins break, I loose out on that benefit - or don't I?

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 6:26

Post #7 of 20 (1560 views)

I think you are overthinking it. Work is work. More is more. If you need to do a short warmup again then do it. Don’t worry about any negative impact to longer break in between intervals, nbd.

Last edited by: Sean H: Nov 7, 18 6:27

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 6:38

Post #8 of 20 (1541 views)

I went through this last winter when my first daughter arrived. Like the poster right above me said "work is work". Some of an interval is better than none. There were times I would get 10 minutes on the trainer before my daughter/wife needed me and sometimes I made it back on the bike and other days I didn't. Hell, there were times when I got in my cycling stuff then sat on the couch with my daughter for a few minutes and fell asleep!

I think the main thing my coach and I did, and you should too, is try not to worry if you are not getting the benefit of what the workout should be and use realize that you are going to get whatever benefit you are able to get out of a workout. The workout will be a guide and if you get it ALL done great! If you get half done then come back later and finish great! If you get none done because you are tired or your baby needs you that's ok too.

It took me a bit to realize that but even now at 10 months I have come to grips that I have to be way more flexible than before. This morning I had every intention of biking at 5. But my daughter peed through her diaper and pajamas and didn't want to go back to sleep after. I sure do love the mornings when we get to sit on the couch and have fun with her. Shoot me a PM if you have any other questions!

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Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 6:50

Post #9 of 20 (1510 views)

I don't think there's much point obsessing over the a planned workout and how to adapt it. If sessions are likely to need a lot of last minute changes to planned duration or interruptions, I would think it makes more sense to do it more freeform. Structured plans don't perform magic that either works or doesn't if you get a number wrong. When I'm unable to plan confidently in advance, I don't pretend I can. I just decide what to do when an opportunity becomes available. I usually do a mix of sessions, either sweetspot, threshold or VO2max focused and occasionally I'll throw in some sprints. I normally use Zwift and for VO2max I just do repeats on a short hill that takes me around 2:40-2:50 at ~110%FTP. I'll usually fit in 6 or 7 in a short session. It's not pre-programmed so there's no messing about if it get's interrupted. Similarly I just ride at lower efforts corresponding to threshold or sweetspot power for medium length or sustained efforts respectively, maybe on a longer Zwift climb, or against the clock. When I have time I do nice long warm ups and cool downs but they're for the chop if time is short and I'll cut the warm-up to maybe 7 or 8 minutes unless I'm planning some really high intensity. Cool-down goes down to maybe only 5 or 6 minutes. My sessions can be a bit last minute and very tight for time but are I generally not interrupted once started. If they were I think I'd only resume if the break was short (<<10mins) or I had time to settle back into another significant effort. If it was just getting back on to finish the last 15mins I'd probably ditch it and try and make up for it next time around.

I like to have a general idea of TSS but I don't work to predefined numbers or plans because there's no real advantage and it's just annoying when you consistently can't do what you planned. IMO, it's better to accept you can't work to someone elses's plan, and don't try.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [Sean H] [ In reply to ]

Nov 7, 18 6:54

Post #10 of 20 (1505 views)

Sean H wrote:

I think you are overthinking it. Work is work. More is more. If you need to do a short warmup again then do it. Don’t worry about any negative impact to longer break in between intervals, nbd.

Better response than mine above. I over complicated the idea of not-overthinking it. Ironic?

Work is work, do what you can.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 1:49

Post #11 of 20 (1368 views)

All, thanks for the feedback! In summary, I am fine with embracing the fact that I may or may not finish (or even start) the workout, But I am worried about too much intensity - let me give some more context why

First, I need to plan - personality trait :) I'm OK to adapt (drop) session(s) as circumstances change, but I need some overall direction/structure, I can't just "wing it"

Actually, if I wing it, then I tend to overdo volume/intensity (well, this time can't overdo the volume at least) - in running, until I started structured (run) training, I would just run too hard all the time, and then spend a lot of time recovering the aching body. Consistently being able to move is more fun :)

Overdoing intensity - I ran myself injured when preparing for my first marathon and overdoing the speed work - I ended up unable to train for about 9 months (a lot of it was spent trying to diagnose what exactly went wrong). The mid volume time crunched TR plan (just as en example, as said, I'm not hung up on following a plan to the letter) scares me - 5x45 min sweet spot/threshold/vo2max work with a weekly TSS of ~300 - considering I have only done up to 180-200 in the past. My goal with weekly TSS is to put an upper limit on the training to prevent injury

I had good experience with just cycling consistently - for a few years, I would ride my single speed to work in the city (thus mostly endurance/tempo due to city traffic) year round, 2x30 mins each workday, which prepared me well for my first road races (~65k)

hence the question (especially in the light of 'work is work'): does it matter how I achieve the same amount of load (weekly TSS)? this TP traditional vs intensity base training article suggests that low intensity works if I produce more stress than what I am used to - and as I haven't cycled much since July-ish, that definitely is more than what I'm used to. Of course, over time I can start to mix in more load if it feels easy.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 2:33

Post #12 of 20 (1328 views)

bableves wrote:

(much appreciate your answers, I'm asking more questions so that I get a better understanding of the physiological impact )

oh, cool it's so easy tech wise!

Physiologically, is it a problem to restart an interval? Do I need to warm up again beforehand? I.e.: I wouldn't hesitate to jump back at 50-70% of FTP, but higher might be problematic without warming up again (thus would require more total time to finish the workout). Also, one of the progressions with sweet spots is to have shorter and shorter recoveries, so if I restart the 2nd interval after a 10-15-30 mins break, I loose out on that benefit - or don't I?

Just out of curiousity, isn't there a way to make room for three hours (or three 45 minute blocks)? We just got our first son, and my N=1 is that it works like a charm most of the time to get out of bed 1,5 hour before everyone else to do some training. In the evening I just go to bed an hour earlier than I used to.

Re: the restarting of intervals, earlier this week I had to assist with a poonami that left our child up to his neck in his own poo, but afterwards I had no problem with picking up the interval where I left it.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [wilbert] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 3:05

Post #13 of 20 (1304 views)

wilbert wrote:

Just out of curiousity, isn't there a way to make room for three hours (or three 45 minute blocks)? We just got our first son, and my N=1 is that it works like a charm most of the time to get out of bed 1,5 hour before everyone else to do some training. In the evening I just go to bed an hour earlier than I used to.

I envy you! I know, each baby is different and all, but our first one wasn't one to sleep through a night. We settled on splitting the night, with me taking the 10PM-2AM shift, and handling things after 6-7AM so we each get some uninterrupted sleep. Waking up an hour earlier wasn't an option. My best chance for training is lunchbreaks. But I'll report back once she is out and our schedule settled - who knows, she might be a good sleeper!

wilbert wrote:

... a poonami ...

haha, what a wonderful word!

Last edited by: bableves: Nov 8, 18 3:12

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 3:21

Post #14 of 20 (1287 views)

I think you should bear in mind that there's a big difference between running and cycling.
It's easy to run too hard and make yourself very sore or injure yourself, but the same is not really true of cycling IMO. yes, if I do a really unusually long and/or intense session I may be a little sore and fatigued for a day or two but it takes a big session to do that once you're in any sort of decent shape. You won't do it by accident, and it's very unlikely you'll injure yourself.
Don't be afraid of intensity in cycling. I don't think you'll be able to overdo it so much on the bike in a short session that you'll suffer afterwards. If you start too hard you'll be unable to finish without backing off. So the session may not be as effective as if you'd paced it better but it's not likely you'll injure yourself or go so deep that you have to take time off.

Running: Keep most of it easy. Running too hard all the time or trying to replace volume with intensity is asking for injuries.
Cycling: Warm-up, cool-down, If you're limited on time feel free to push the intensity up to sweetspot for as long as you can manage and 2 x20min threshold intervals is a classic. You won't likely overdo it. You can throw in some sessions aimed at going above threshold too so things stay interesting. Some VO2max intervals and maybe some sprints. It's unlikely you'll manage to overdo these either. It already hurts enough when you do typical volumes. For VO2max I use between 108% & 120%FTP depending on interval durations. I typically do around 5 to 8 intervals of 2.5-3mins at 120-125%FTP now, I used to do 5x5mins or 4x6mins at 108-110%FTP. I find those really tough to do but still feel fine afterwards and could do a sweetspot session the next day no problem.

[Edit] If you've done little since July it may be best to start at Sweetspot and add threshold and and VO2max later but I wouldn't be too concerned about overdoing it as you might with running. Hard to do that with just a few hours cycling a week.

Last edited by: Ai_1: Nov 8, 18 3:30

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [wilbert] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 4:22

Post #15 of 20 (1213 views)

Our first arrived 5 months ago. I can't complain about the impact he's had on my sleep, since he rarely wakes during the night so my sleep isn't effected much. However, I already only sleep <6hrs a night and that works for me but it's not reasonable to reduce that much more. I already get up around 06:15hrs for work and getting to bed more than an hour earlier isn't going to work due to our schedules. My partner works a big chunk of each evening so I have to find an hour or so in the evening when she's not working and preferably before 22:00, and still leave some time for actually spending time together.
I see plenty comments on this forum with guys saying you can find the time if you want to. Sure, at what cost? Training is important to me, but not more important than making a living, maintaining my relationship, being a good dad and trying to enjoy life.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 4:36

Post #16 of 20 (1194 views)

Ai_1 wrote:

Our first arrived 5 months ago. I can't complain about the impact he's had on my sleep, since he rarely wakes during the night so my sleep isn't effected much. However, I already only sleep <6hrs a night and that works for me but it's not reasonable to reduce that much more. I already get up around 06:15hrs for work and getting to bed more than an hour earlier isn't going to work due to our schedules. My partner works a big chunk of each evening so I have to find an hour or so in the evening when she's not working and preferably before 22:00, and still leave some time for actually spending time together.
I see plenty comments on this forum with guys saying you can find the time if you want to. Sure, at what cost? Training is important to me, but not more important than making a living, maintaining my relationship, being a good dad and trying to enjoy life.

By no means I would want to give the impression that one 'can find time if you want to'. I'm well aware that situations can differ very much. I totally agree with the priorities you outline ;-) I'm in the fortunate situation where I don have to leave for work before 7:30 and our little one only comes once a night. I'm also well aware that situations can differ greatly between different countries.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [wilbert] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 5:03

Post #17 of 20 (1157 views)

wilbert wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

Our first arrived 5 months ago. I can't complain about the impact he's had on my sleep, since he rarely wakes during the night so my sleep isn't effected much. However, I already only sleep <6hrs a night and that works for me but it's not reasonable to reduce that much more. I already get up around 06:15hrs for work and getting to bed more than an hour earlier isn't going to work due to our schedules. My partner works a big chunk of each evening so I have to find an hour or so in the evening when she's not working and preferably before 22:00, and still leave some time for actually spending time together.
I see plenty comments on this forum with guys saying you can find the time if you want to. Sure, at what cost? Training is important to me, but not more important than making a living, maintaining my relationship, being a good dad and trying to enjoy life.

By no means I would want to give the impression that one 'can find time if you want to'. I'm well aware that situations can differ very much. I totally agree with the priorities you outline ;-) I'm in the fortunate situation where I don have to leave for work before 7:30 and our little one only comes once a night. I'm also well aware that situations can differ greatly between different countries.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were one of those saying "you can find the time if you want to".

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 5:08

Post #18 of 20 (1152 views)

Ai_1 wrote:

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you were one of those saying "you can find the time if you want to".

No hard feeling ;-)

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [bableves] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 5:58

Post #19 of 20 (1103 views)

bableves wrote:

if the weekly total TSS is about the same (200ish). Last off season I did around 160-180 weekly TSS (when I prepared for oly tris) plus swims & runs.

Unfortunately, at 160 to 200 TSS per week on a bike the answer is going to be workouts that not many people are willing to do (pain and suffering).

I'm a time crunched bike-only person who my "off" weeks are about 200 TSS. My "on" weeks are in the mid 300's to lower 400's.

As time gets shorter, intensity must go up. While people claim that road-race intervals challenge the "wrong" body systems for tri........if you're at 160-200 TSS the intensity needed to maximize that will more closely resemble road-race workouts than long distance time trial ones.

If I only had that amount of TSS to spend per week, I'd spend it on something like workouts of 2 sets of 3x3min or 3x9min under/overs. Where the 3min is ~25% over 20 minute power. The under overs would be at about 95% under and 105% of 20 min power, yeah, they really really really suck.

Works for me. I can drop folks that spend twice the time per week.

Examples........

3min: either one set or two sets of 3 repeats
https://www.strava.com/activities/1847893636/analysis

Under/overs: 3 repeats
https://www.strava.com/activities/1877735286

This kind of stuff works, but the workouts are tough and require a couple weeks lead-in with hard tempo workouts.

Re: (time crunched/interruptable) bike training planning - weekly total TSS matters the most? [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]

Nov 8, 18 6:22

Post #20 of 20 (1085 views)

burnthesheep wrote:

As time gets shorter, intensity must go up. While people claim that road-race intervals challenge the "wrong" body systems for tri........if you're at 160-200 TSS the intensity needed to maximize that will more closely resemble road-race workouts than long distance time trial ones.

That's something that I've been considering regardless of the time crunch - I'm not much faster than the ones that I pass, and when taking over groups of people, by the time I get to the front, I exhaust myself, and I'm taken over again in no time.

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