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(Yet another) strength training question
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I'm something of a believer in strength training but something of a skeptic about weight training. I've seen discussion of several studies, often on this forum. The studies all seem to have the same basic structure: take a group of (cyclists/runners) at (whatever general level of fitness / seriousness); have half add weight training; have half keep doing whatever they were doing; measure outcomes. What I am wondering is, have there been any studies in which the second group didn't keep doing what they were doing, but added in a comparable amount of sport-specific strength training? For cyclists this might mean, for example, standing-start "sprints," in the saddle and big ring; or a rolling start version up a significant grade, etc. Basically, I'm curious to know if the effectiveness of that type of strength training has been tested against weights (or, for that matter, against no strength training).

As an a aside, when I say I'm a believer in the benefits of strength training its more in the context of bike racing than in triathlons, although I suspect it has it least some benefit in triathlon as well.

Any info responsive to the question greatly appreciated, a general renewal of the gym / no gym debate completely unintended and apologized for in advance.
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [colobrio] [ In reply to ]
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Well, you'd need three groups then, because any good study needs a control group. That is why one group does the same thing. They are the control.

The real question, i think, is why you think sprinting ability has any value for a triathlete. It has a very obvious benefit for a road racer, even for someone who isn't a "sprinter." But for a triathlete, what is the value?

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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I've seen summaries of studies in other contexts that have used three groups, so I don't see why that's a problem, other than needing to increase the overall size/expense of the study to keep a large enough sample in each group.

At least one time the common answer was that a muscle that had greater max strength would need to contract fewer fibers at any one time to maintain a certain output, and therefore fatigue less quickly. I haven't read that in a while, so maybe it's been debunked, you would know better than me.

My unscientific n=1 is that if I do some on-bike strength training for a month or two before starting intervals, I will improve more quickly once I start the interval training. Perception is that this is because if i have not worked strength, my legs fatigue during hard efforts before my CV system has been taxed enough to get much benefit, but that too may be crap. Its because I'm aware of the limitations of n=1, even if it's my own, that I'd like to know if there's any science.
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [colobrio] [ In reply to ]
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Does cycling training help you lift more weight with your legs?

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Training Plans -- Power Meter Hire -- SRM Sales Australia -- cyclecoach.com -- My Blog -- Sydney Turbo Studio
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [Alex Simmons] [ In reply to ]
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Does cycling training help you lift more weight with your legs?


Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.

Of course, this would be a meaningless test, but isn't that about the reverse of a lot of the strength training tests out there?



-Andrew
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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Does cycling training help you lift more weight with your legs?


Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.

Of course, this would be a meaningless test, but isn't that about the reverse of a lot of the strength training tests out there?
Well I was being a little facetious.

If endurance cycling and strength are related, why don't we see weightlifters doing lots of endurance cycling training?

_________________________________________________________________________________
Training Plans -- Power Meter Hire -- SRM Sales Australia -- cyclecoach.com -- My Blog -- Sydney Turbo Studio
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [Alex Simmons] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with you completely wrt cycling Alex, however there are some studies that show that strength training may improve running economy? Certainly not conclusive and the benefits could come as much from reduced flexibility as from increased strength. That said, I only include strength training in my routine in the 4-6 weeks before my semi-annual fitness test.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20625197

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18978605

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18975259
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.

I'd take that bet, and I'm betting my money would be pretty safe. I came to cycling/tri from powerlifting and I can tell you that having very strong legs was absolutely useless on the bike for more than 30-45 seconds, because you are used to pushing your muscles well beyond the lactate threshold.

To quote the great Dr. Strossen, "If you want to bench 500, you don't put 50 on the bar and build your reps up to 100." n=1 here, but doing reps at low weight (e.g. cycling) will not make your legs stronger. if you want to get stronger you do the opposite, low reps with 95% or more of your one rep max.

--
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful."
-Anton LaVey
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [jockeys] [ In reply to ]
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Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.


I'd take that bet, and I'm betting my money would be pretty safe. I came to cycling/tri from powerlifting and I can tell you that having very strong legs was absolutely useless on the bike for more than 30-45 seconds, because you are used to pushing your muscles well beyond the lactate threshold.

To quote the great Dr. Strossen, "If you want to bench 500, you don't put 50 on the bar and build your reps up to 100." n=1 here, but doing reps at low weight (e.g. cycling) will not make your legs stronger. if you want to get stronger you do the opposite, low reps with 95% or more of your one rep max.

I think you need to reread what I wrote. Reading comprehension 101...

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM squat. Have them do nothing but bike for 6 months and then test their 1RM squat again. You really want to bet that there wouldn't be an improvement? How much money do you have...

I posted that to make fun of tests that might show improvement in cycling from weight lifting when they basically do the reverse of what I suggested.



-Andrew
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [Alex Simmons] [ In reply to ]
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I tried to be clear that I wasn't interested in weights, but sport-specific (i.e., "on bike") strength training.

Does running 400s make you a faster marathoner? Most marathoners seem to think so. If intense efforts of 65 seconds improve output in races of over 2 hours, why not intense efforts of 15 seconds, at a low cadence on a bike? Where's the cutoff? I don't know, and I'm just curious if anyone knows of any relevant studies. If there aren't any, oh well, but no need to pretend I'm advocating for "weight training makes couch potatoes faster."
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.


I'd take that bet, and I'm betting my money would be pretty safe. I came to cycling/tri from powerlifting and I can tell you that having very strong legs was absolutely useless on the bike for more than 30-45 seconds, because you are used to pushing your muscles well beyond the lactate threshold.

To quote the great Dr. Strossen, "If you want to bench 500, you don't put 50 on the bar and build your reps up to 100." n=1 here, but doing reps at low weight (e.g. cycling) will not make your legs stronger. if you want to get stronger you do the opposite, low reps with 95% or more of your one rep max.


I think you need to reread what I wrote. Reading comprehension 101...

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM squat. Have them do nothing but bike for 6 months and then test their 1RM squat again. You really want to bet that there wouldn't be an improvement? How much money do you have...

I posted that to make fun of tests that might show improvement in cycling from weight lifting when they basically do the reverse of what I suggested.

I'm guessing that jockeys comprehended exactly what you meant to say. What you failed to comprehend is his message that no amount of endurance training will increase the maximum one rep strength. Endurance cycling takes so little strength that doing a lot of it doesn't effect changes to strength.

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM bench. Have them do nothing but 1lb. bench presses for 6 months and then test their 1RM bench again. You think there'd be an improvement?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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I think you need to reread what I wrote. Reading comprehension 101...

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM squat. Have them do nothing but bike for 6 months and then test their 1RM squat again. You really want to bet that there wouldn't be an improvement? How much money do you have...

I posted that to make fun of tests that might show improvement in cycling from weight lifting when they basically do the reverse of what I suggested.

I understood what you posted, I just disagree. Cycling for 6 months would certainly improve their endurance, but I don't think it would have anything but a negligible effect on their one rep max. (if that)

I do agree that the reverse test is ridiculous, and proves nothing.

--
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful."
-Anton LaVey
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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In Reply To:

Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.


I'd take that bet, and I'm betting my money would be pretty safe. I came to cycling/tri from powerlifting and I can tell you that having very strong legs was absolutely useless on the bike for more than 30-45 seconds, because you are used to pushing your muscles well beyond the lactate threshold.

To quote the great Dr. Strossen, "If you want to bench 500, you don't put 50 on the bar and build your reps up to 100." n=1 here, but doing reps at low weight (e.g. cycling) will not make your legs stronger. if you want to get stronger you do the opposite, low reps with 95% or more of your one rep max.


I think you need to reread what I wrote. Reading comprehension 101...

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM squat. Have them do nothing but bike for 6 months and then test their 1RM squat again. You really want to bet that there wouldn't be an improvement? How much money do you have...

I posted that to make fun of tests that might show improvement in cycling from weight lifting when they basically do the reverse of what I suggested.


I'm guessing that jockeys comprehended exactly what you meant to say. What you failed to comprehend is his message that no amount of endurance training will increase the maximum one rep strength. Endurance cycling takes so little strength that doing a lot of it doesn't effect changes to strength.

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM bench. Have them do nothing but 1lb. bench presses for 6 months and then test their 1RM bench again. You think there'd be an improvement?

I do. In my example, for a completely untrained person, 6 months of cycling will, at the very least, improve their muscle recruitment and ability to use more of their otherwise untrained and weak muscles.

In retrospect, sarcastic font may have been more appropriate for my initial response.



-Andrew
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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AMT04

First of all, I really should go get my popcorn and I really should not participate in this thread because I will waste too much time today!

OK, to answer your question, I was thinking about this the other day, because I was frankly suprised by a recent result.

Recently I have been doing XC roller skiing around 20-30K per week spread over a few sessions on top of my tri training (mainly for variety cause my tri season is going from April till November, and I can only take so much of the same thing). When I do this, I use my triceps much more than swimming. At the moment, I am not doing any sprint training on roller skis just aerobic stuff.

For those of you who want to see what XC ski sprint racing looks like, here you go (energy system of an 800m runner....):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_0IN2lgS6E


The other day I was doing some pushups, and while not testing "max benchpress" ability, I was only doing pushups for under 1 minute which clearly is using my fast twitch vs my slowtwitch fibers. I've been using my slowtwitch for roller skiing. I was able to increase my maximum number of pushups within that minute and my entire core and upper body felt stronger for this anaerobic exercise

Sample size N=1.

Not answering your question, but this was after around 1 month on roller skis.
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [jockeys] [ In reply to ]
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I take it you've never talked to a Powerlifter about their training. I worked with one, who trained with many successful guys (top 100 in world). Their competitions are obviously for a 1RM, however their training involves sets of 20+ reps, as well as Tabata intervals. Granted, it's not prolonged aerobic training, but it's far from "few reps of 95% 1RM" that another poster suggested.

-Physiojoe



"I think you need to reread what I wrote. Reading comprehension 101...

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM squat. Have them do nothing but bike for 6 months and then test their 1RM squat again. You really want to bet that there wouldn't be an improvement? How much money do you have...

I posted that to make fun of tests that might show improvement in cycling from weight lifting when they basically do the reverse of what I suggested.[/reply]
I understood what you posted, I just disagree. Cycling for 6 months would certainly improve their endurance, but I don't think it would have anything but a negligible effect on their one rep max. (if that)

I do agree that the reverse test is ridiculous, and proves nothing."

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [Physiojoe925] [ In reply to ]
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I was a powerlifter, and most of the guys I worked out with were, too. not world class or anything, but had been doing it a few years. I would consider 20 reps fairly low, and 95% max was pretty common for the last set. not everyone trains that way and not everyone should, but that's what worked best for me.

a common set (what I intended by saying "low reps at 95%orm) 5@80%orm, rest, 5@85%orm, rest, 5@90%orm, rest, 5@95%orm 5@95%orm to point of failure. so, if you can finish its a 25 rep set.

--
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful."
-Anton LaVey
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM bench. Have them do nothing but 1lb. bench presses for 6 months and then test their 1RM bench again. You think there'd be an improvement?

exactly. you've said it much more eloquently than I could.

--
"It's too bad stupidity isn't painful."
-Anton LaVey
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
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Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.


I'd take that bet, and I'm betting my money would be pretty safe. I came to cycling/tri from powerlifting and I can tell you that having very strong legs was absolutely useless on the bike for more than 30-45 seconds, because you are used to pushing your muscles well beyond the lactate threshold.

To quote the great Dr. Strossen, "If you want to bench 500, you don't put 50 on the bar and build your reps up to 100." n=1 here, but doing reps at low weight (e.g. cycling) will not make your legs stronger. if you want to get stronger you do the opposite, low reps with 95% or more of your one rep max.


I think you need to reread what I wrote. Reading comprehension 101...

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM squat. Have them do nothing but bike for 6 months and then test their 1RM squat again. You really want to bet that there wouldn't be an improvement? How much money do you have...

I posted that to make fun of tests that might show improvement in cycling from weight lifting when they basically do the reverse of what I suggested.


I'm guessing that jockeys comprehended exactly what you meant to say. What you failed to comprehend is his message that no amount of endurance training will increase the maximum one rep strength. Endurance cycling takes so little strength that doing a lot of it doesn't effect changes to strength.

Take a completely untrained person, off the couch. Test their 1RM bench. Have them do nothing but 1lb. bench presses for 6 months and then test their 1RM bench again. You think there'd be an improvement?

I do. In my example, for a completely untrained person, 6 months of cycling will, at the very least, improve their muscle recruitment and ability to use more of their otherwise untrained and weak muscles.

In retrospect, sarcastic font may have been more appropriate for my initial response.

I will take your bet, since you are clearly wrong. To prove that you're wrong, Dev Paul just agreed with you. QED

-

The Triathlon Squad

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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [AMT04] [ In reply to ]
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Does cycling training help you lift more weight with your legs?


Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.

I wouldn't:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3733616

In particular, see Fig. 5, which demonstrates that training did not increase the peak torque developed during single knee extensions performed at 30, 60, 180, or 240 deg/s.
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [colobrio] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I tried to be clear that I wasn't interested in weights, but sport-specific (i.e., "on bike") strength training.

Does running 400s make you a faster marathoner? Most marathoners seem to think so. If intense efforts of 65 seconds improve output in races of over 2 hours, why not intense efforts of 15 seconds, at a low cadence on a bike? Where's the cutoff? I don't know, and I'm just curious if anyone knows of any relevant studies. If there aren't any, oh well, but no need to pretend I'm advocating for "weight training makes couch potatoes faster."

What makes you think that an even output over 65secs bears any resemblance to a build-to-peak-and-then-fall-off effort of roughly 1/5th the duration?

If you were to examine the pacing of a marathoner running 400s on the track, it would look totally different than what you are proposing on the bike. It has to, because the energy systems are different.

When you do sprints on the bike, you build to peak power, and then you MUST fall off from that peak. No one sustains it. Same way that guys running the 100m dash - an event of roughly equivalent time - pace themselves.

So, how many marathoners do you know that work hard on improving their best 100m time?

An interesting aside, though, is that if you take a group of marathoners with reasonably equivalent training (i.e., you don't call Usain Bolt a marathoner just because he says that he is going to run a marathon), and have them run even just 20m, you can make accurate predictions about their performance in the marathon. Plyometric leaping ability is a way better predictor of 10km performance than VO2Max. However, the folly that a LOT of people make is assuming that improving the predictor yields equivalent performance in the event you are attempting to predict performance for.

In other words, it's a true statement that among marathoners, the best marathoner will most probably be the guy who is fastest over 20m. But what you CANNOT say is that if you take the slowest guy, and only work on his 20m speed until he is fastest, that his marathon time will improve equivalently. What you can say is that if you improve a guy's marathon time, his 20m speed will also improve. This concept is lost on a ton of people.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
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Agree with you completely wrt cycling Alex, however there are some studies that show that strength training may improve running economy?
I took the discussion to be about cycling.

_________________________________________________________________________________
Training Plans -- Power Meter Hire -- SRM Sales Australia -- cyclecoach.com -- My Blog -- Sydney Turbo Studio
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [colobrio] [ In reply to ]
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I tried to be clear that I wasn't interested in weights, but sport-specific (i.e., "on bike") strength training.

Training on the bike might be specific to improving on-bike performance, but it ain't strength training.

What it is, is training to improve power output.

_________________________________________________________________________________
Training Plans -- Power Meter Hire -- SRM Sales Australia -- cyclecoach.com -- My Blog -- Sydney Turbo Studio
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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what if i start using these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlrWnahTiMo

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
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In the future, I'll remember to avoid agreeing with Dev_Paul at all costs!



-Andrew
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Re: (Yet another) strength training question [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Does cycling training help you lift more weight with your legs?


Take a completely untrained person, test their 1 rep max squat, then have them spend 3-6 months doing nothing but cyling, then test their 1 rep max squat again. I'd bet you'd see an improvement.


I wouldn't:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3733616

In particular, see Fig. 5, which demonstrates that training did not increase the peak torque developed during single knee extensions performed at 30, 60, 180, or 240 deg/s.

It's morning here and I haven't yet had my coffee to sit and read through the entire study, so bear with me...

It appears science may not support my wager (which, alas, was intended as a joke). My understanding (based only on a single physiology course in college 10yrs ago), is that for an untrained person, the initial adaptation period with a new training regimen will result in an increased ability to do 'work' due to the recruitment of a higher percentage of muscle fibers. If I remember correctly, this is more of a neurological adaptation than a training/fitness adaptation. In this absurdly limited example, wouldn't this result in an increase in that persons ability to perform the 1RM, if only by a little?

Believe me, I am not claiming that cycling is a good method of building 1RM strength. My initial post was intended to mock the pseudo scientific studies I've heard about that take untrained people, have them start working out with some strength training mixed in a showing that as proof that strength training is good for cycling.



-Andrew
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