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(UPDATED) Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link).
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Some thoughts to bat around about Armstrong's comeback, written with careful consideration in under 20 minutes:

http://www.bikesportmichigan.com/...orials/0000131.shtml

Discuss, disagree, agree, berate and argue.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
Last edited by: Tom Demerly: Sep 10, 08 10:50
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Aw fiddlesticks... Major typo in fourth paragraph. It reads, "We have a system here in America; it’s guilty until proven innocent."

It should obviously read, "We have a system here in America; it’s innocent until proven guilty."

The web developer just left so it stays put until tomorrow. How embarassing...

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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But when it comes to the doping hysteria in this country, your first version is the truer of the two.
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [tyson] [ In reply to ]
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I know. When I read it I actually thought about just leaving it- it works both ways. It isn't what I meant to say though- perhaps a Freudian slip.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I also want to believe Armstrong was clean, but the circumstantial evidence makes it very difficult.

Two comments:

1. I don't think you can compare the era when he won his 7 tours to the current era. Almost all of Armstrong's closest rivals either tested positive, admitted to doping and/or were heavily linked to doping scandals during his tour run. The anti-doping system was (and probably still is somewhat) lagging behind the ever-advancing doping techniques, but the biological passport and independent testing agencies now make doping much more difficult. I think Armstrong had a pretty good idea what was going on in the other camps earlier. Now Armstrong can be pretty confident the others are clean, therefore he doesn't have to risk doping to be competitive; if he doesn't win he'll still generate a lot of good press for cycling, sponsors, cancer, etc.

2. How would you like to be Alberto Contador? Think he'll be at Astana next year. Leipheimer will make a good, well-paid lieutenant, but I bet Contador is gone.... to Katusha (the new Russian Super Budget team).
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting analysis. I have read many things from both sides (LA biographies and also Walsh's book and other summaries of allegations) and I am still remained with basically the choice between cynicism or potential naiveness. I have given it a lot of thought and considering what he did and where he came from, I deliberately choose to be be labeled naive (if he cheated) than falsely discredit someone who rose from cancer and won the toughest athletic challenge 7 times (if he was clean). This come back of his reaffirms my stance.



"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [sinkorswim] [ In reply to ]
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Good, no excellent points about the state of cycling. Armstrong could have been dirty when he won the 7. He may be clean in a comeback. We know there are still riders cheating because of this year's Tour with Rico and the others. I think it is presumptuous to assume we got everybody in the race who was using a banned substance.

The irony here is that Armstrong could come back clean and get smoked by someone using.

As for Contador? Well, just exactly what was the reason Astana was shut out of this year's Tour de France?

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [ACTN3] [ In reply to ]
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You and I are in the same camp basically.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, in the court of public opinion (especially w/pro cyclists and doping) you're correct. it is guilty until proven innocent.

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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Tom - You have way too many icons on your desktop
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure why he is making the comeback. I think he can do more to raise the profile of cancer research by media interviews, events etc if he devotes himself to it full time rather than competing again. I also feel that it is disrespectful toward the current crop of pro riders to think that he can come out of retirement and be better than them and win tdf again.

Not sure how that will be perceived by the peleton, but I feel he had his time and it's time to move on. Perhaps this is the problem, the same problem Tinley had when he retired in that he is trying to find his place in the world again.


"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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...the article pretty much summed up what most people think.....personally its the best piece of sporting news I've heard since...and this one os for my friends from Europe in this forum.....we chased off Real Madrid in their persuit of Ronaldo.....back to Armstrong.....for me watching the Tour just hasnt been the same since he left.....i think of Formula One since Senna, Motorcycling since Schwantz and Rainey, football since Cantona...every sport needs that major star to make people excited.....example....Spain....major cycling nation, people out on the roads big time but not seemingly as well supported when you watch races on TV....the country needs a charismatic rider that will make you watch a race....for me that was Armstrong.....since he left there has been no-one that thrills, in my opinion....apart from Cavendish of course, for us that support British riders.....I mean Sastre winning the Tour....great rider but em....no X factor.....so, in summary, Armstrong brings the X Factor to the race....i cant wait for the Tour and cant wait to read about his training.....hes doing it for himself, hes doing it to raise cancer awareness, obviously both combined but above all he's doing it cos he knows hes still competitive and like me hes sat at home thinking....these guys are not a patch on me....i can kick their asses.....a por ellos!!!!

Stephen Perera
Gibraltar, Europe
graphics@gibraltar.gi
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Just have to bring you up slightly with one of your last paragraphs "There are reasons why Armstrong may have won seven Tours de France when the other great champions were only able to win a maximum of five. Firstly, Armstrong concentrated exclusively on winning the Tour to the exclusion of all other cycling events. The other riders did not do that. Armstrong also benefited from technology that simply did not exist in the era of LeMond, Indurain, Hinault, Merckx and Anquetil. Armstrong’s team was organized specifically to ride for him in the Tour de France and his leadership was never in question."
You will find that in the days of Indurain, he brought about the exclusive focus on the Tour de France assembling his team to defend him and the yellow jersey. During those years, the UCI rules were more relaxed enabling Indurain to benefit from exotic bike shapes and tubing, perhaps more so than his opponents as it was in the TT that he benefitted the most. It makes the case that Armstrong benefitted less than you lay claim to from these factors as "Der Kaiser" in particular had the team and the technology as much as Armstrong and without Lance would have won several times over. Perhaps it is a total focus on the attention to detail to arrive at a peak in July that enabled Lance to win seven times as well as having the Physiology that enabaled him to do so.
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [JulianInEngland] [ In reply to ]
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" I also feel that it is disrespectful toward the current crop of pro riders to think that he can come out of retirement and be better than them and win tdf again."


How in the world is it "disrespectful" Julian...particularly if he pulls it off? The guy is one of those great champions in sport. Do you think he ought to come back saying "Well, I'm coming back, but I probably can't beat Contador or some of these other fast guys. I'll just be happy riding in the bunch again."? Do you think the other guys want to ride against a Lance who would talk that way?
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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So, a former champion who has been retired from the sport for 2 or 3 seasons says "I am coming back to win the tour de france next year". The sub text is clearly that he feels he is a better rider after that period of time out of the sport to beat all of them. I guess one person's disrespect is another's trash talk.


"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [JulianInEngland] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I also feel that it is disrespectful toward the current crop of pro riders to think that he can come out of retirement and be better than them and win tdf again.

You seem to be the only one.
From VeloNews:
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Alberto Contador (Astana): I don’t know about the truth of the rumor, but it certainly appears as something surprising and curious. I view it as a rumor that would revolutionize the world of cycling. He would be a good teammate and it would be a unique experience and it would be something of pride because he’s a rider I really admire a lot. I don’t know what to make of the story, but if it’s true and he does come back, he certainly would be able to do just about anything he wanted.
Alejandro Valverde (Caisse d’Epargne): If he did come back, he’d be ready to race the Tour, even though I don’t know if he could win it. I know that he hasn’t lost his physical form and if he begins to train in earnest he could be right there. I find it hard to believe that he’d come back, but if there are rumors, maybe something’s there. Astana with Contador and Armstrong would be one hell of a team!
Carlos Sastre (CSC-Saxo Bank): He’s a rider who can put your hair on end just by watching him on TV. After three years of inactivity, it would be difficult to return to the highest level, but he is Lance Armstrong. If he wants to return it’s because he believes he has an opportunity.”
Egoi Martínez (Euskaltel-Euskadi): I don’t know whether to take it seriously or if it’s a joke. When I was with him (at Discovery Channel), once he was retired, he said he would leave sport behind him and lead another life. At the same time, maybe he’s set himself a challenge, but I would find it strange if he came back. No matter how you look at it, he’s Lance Armstrong and he’s capable of anything. He could race the Tour and even win it.

I don't see anything there but tremendous respect and maybe a little concern!



Erik
Strava
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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You seem to be the only one.
From VeloNews:
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Alberto Contador (Astana): I don’t know about the truth of the rumor, but it certainly appears as something surprising and curious. I view it as a rumor that would revolutionize the world of cycling. He would be a good teammate and it would be a unique experience and it would be something of pride because he’s a rider I really admire a lot. I don’t know what to make of the story, but if it’s true and he does come back, he certainly would be able to do just about anything he wanted.
Alejandro Valverde (Caisse d’Epargne): If he did come back, he’d be ready to race the Tour, even though I don’t know if he could win it. I know that he hasn’t lost his physical form and if he begins to train in earnest he could be right there. I find it hard to believe that he’d come back, but if there are rumors, maybe something’s there. Astana with Contador and Armstrong would be one hell of a team!
Carlos Sastre (CSC-Saxo Bank): He’s a rider who can put your hair on end just by watching him on TV. After three years of inactivity, it would be difficult to return to the highest level, but he is Lance Armstrong. If he wants to return it’s because he believes he has an opportunity.”
Egoi Martínez (Euskaltel-Euskadi): I don’t know whether to take it seriously or if it’s a joke. When I was with him (at Discovery Channel), once he was retired, he said he would leave sport behind him and lead another life. At the same time, maybe he’s set himself a challenge, but I would find it strange if he came back. No matter how you look at it, he’s Lance Armstrong and he’s capable of anything. He could race the Tour and even win it.


I don't see anything there but tremendous respect and maybe a little concern!

----------------------------------------------------
Wow, only 4 in the peleton next year! should be interesting.


"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [JulianInEngland] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
----------------------------------------------------
Wow, only 4 in the peleton next year! should be interesting.
Are you differently abled?



Erik
Strava
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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I'm sorry, I don't speak American, what is differently abled?

You stated that I was the ONLY person that thought LA was being disrespectful to the current riders and then showed quotes from four pro riders. Ergo since they are ALL the others there must only be four riders.

Did I miss something other than the right to have an opinion?


"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
"We have a system here in America; it’s innocent until proven guilty."

I believe they have that same system in France ;)
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [JulianInEngland] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, it's confirmed.



Erik
Strava
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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Cool, I wish him and you well.


"How bad can it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [JulianInEngland] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I also feel that it is disrespectful toward the current crop of pro riders to think that he can come out of retirement and be better than them and win tdf again.
Did you have the same sentiment regarding Sugar Ray Leonard, George Foreman, Mohammed Ali, Bjorn Borg, John McEnroe, Martina Navratilova, Diego Maradonna, George Best, Dara Torres....... when they made their combacks? Was Gebreselassie being disrespectful stepping back into the 10,000m again? All of these came back into the sport, most of them became champions again and certainly all of them believed in themselves enough that they could be better than the rest when they came back.

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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Bucky] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
"We have a system here in America; it’s innocent until proven guilty."



That's for the American criminal justice system, not all systems of judgment in America. The WADA/UCI/TDF certainly have no obligation to raise the bar of proof as high as the U.S. criminal justice system.



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But none of the proof is conclusive. It is all circumstantial and anecdotal.

Circumstantial evidence is admissible in most courts and many convictions have been based solely on circumstantial evidence.

This is not commentary that I think Armstrong doped, or should be banned or anything. Hell if I know. Just an argument not throw the trappings of criminal justice on the Armstrong doping allegations.
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Re: About Armstrong's confirmed comeback (link). [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Good article... I also wonder if there is something psychologically appealing to a lifestyle that is so focused on one race. Being so purpose driven and focused on one thing for so long is something that many people miss. Someone above listed all the athletes that return to sport after a retirement... Perhaps allegations, anger, and cancer awareness aside, Lance sees an opportunity to do well and to return to a lifestyle that he knows best.

Last edited by: Fr.Tri: Sep 10, 08 7:27
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