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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [davidalone] [ In reply to ]
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davidalone wrote:
It's not rocket science to build in a protective bumper. .

And interestingly they did exactly this on the P5 which came out after the S5... they surrounded the edge of the fork with rubber to better spread the load of such an impact!

Unfortunately I think the actual endstop is the brake cables running through the headset clamp parts which stops the rotation before this endstop. Does anyone have a pic of the inside of the frame? If it is not reinforced with a few extra plies in that area it will definitely impact my desire for this bike!
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [benonlees] [ In reply to ]
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I just checked and see no problem on my S5D. The handlebar is not rotating as much as shown on the video which may be due to the removal of some internal parts. I will ask Cervélo about it and keep you all posted.

- Antony Costes -
PhD in Biomechanics / Professional Triathlete (9 pro wins)

"If you cannot measure it, you cannot improve it."
Lord Kelvin
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [Polo_1272] [ In reply to ]
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Please note that the real possible problem being talked about in that video starts around 3:55. Namely, there's a wedge inside the frame which is the actual "stop" built in, but by the design, it essentially hits the wall of the steerer tube in every case when handlebars are rotated to around 70+ degrees - which can happen in many situations, as already pointed out in this thread. And you don't need to be a materials expert to think what happens when a quite thin layer of glued composites is repeatedly hit by a piece of metal - and in this case, even a sharp one!

Myself, as an owner of S5D, I'm quite shocked by this and would really appreciate Cervelo coming out with an explanation which is better than only "in ordinary use handlebars never turn that much", like in a statement which was quoted by Cervelo at WW forum (bolded areas by me):

Quote:
Thanks for reaching out to Cervélo. I hope you are enjoying your S5. Regular use and transport will not be effected by the design on the S5 headtube fortunately. Only crashes and poor handling will cause damage to the bayonet area.


The preload cone of the S5 is designed to act as a bumper, not a hard stop. Due to the bayonet on the S5 fork, it was decided there should be some protection for over rotation of the bars, which led to the shape of the preload cone. The intention was to maximize steering angle, so even in a best-case scenario, there is only about 1-2mm of clearance between the fork and frame. Due to the design of the system, a hard rotation could still lead to contact (think general twisting within the system). The preload cone works by acting on the inside surface of the head tube, which receives its shape from the internal bladder during the molding process. Minor difference in wall thickness or resin content can easily change the moment where the preload cones interacts with the inside of the head tube, this is why there can be a difference in the amount of rotation to either side. The steering angle on the S5 is roughly double the ISO requirement, so small variations are not a big issue.


----------------------------
Need more W/CdA.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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I haven't taken a close look at my wife's new P-Series tri bike, but the head tube area sort of looks like the S5 one in the video...makes me wonder if it will have the same issue...
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [benonlees] [ In reply to ]
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benonlees wrote:
Grantbot21 wrote:
rhys wrote:
that is ridiculous. this makes 5 significant design errors by Cervelo.

First iteration of their carbon R series bike, the R2.5 that CSC rode had a recall on frame
Second, the wolf fork had a recall
Third, the P4. The whole frame. Disc wheels wouldn't fit a TT bike.
Fourth, the B-Bright bottom bracket would creak like hell and 3 different mechanics I had work on it could not get it to go away. Apparently they have fixed that issue now with new design

and now this which is a significant safety risk by looks of it.


I just bought an Aspero gravel. fingers crossed!


5 whole errors since the r2.5 holy crap call the BBB.

R2.5, limited number of frames and they were late model ones. Sounds like more of a manufacturing problem than design it wasn’t the whole model line.

Wolf fork - Cervelo didn’t produce these they specd them on their bikes. Not only that after the type of stress was determined to be a failure point Cervelo stopped using them and voluntarily recalled them, even though the company who produced them wouldn’t recall them.

P4- the frame was not recalled. If you tightened the bolt in front of the seatpost too tight it could potentially split a small piece of the carbon behind the seatpost making it very difficult to tighten moving forward. Cervelo basically have everyone a new 2011 p4 if this happened even though the person tightening the bolt was normally at fault.

The frame also fits disc wheels that were out at the time they were designing the frame. It was unfortunate that zipp went super wide with discs the same time the frames started to come out, but that wasn’t realistically their fault. Shit happens.


The bottom bracket can creak on the newer frames I will give you that.


Okay.... are you able to explain away this S5 design flaw though?

Sure that n=1 without proof it’s what actually caused the problem isn’t a design flaw.

I’m going to trust the people who actually built and tested the bike that it’s not a problem. The person could have somehow slammed their bars to that side causing the problem, who knows, just because one guy with a YouTube channel and a few guys on a forum say that it’s a design flaw doesn’t mean it actually is one.

I don’t need to make up some outrage today I’m good.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [Rocky M] [ In reply to ]
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Rocky M wrote:
I haven't taken a close look at my wife's new P-Series tri bike, but the head tube area sort of looks like the S5 one in the video...makes me wonder if it will have the same issue...

no other cervelo bike is similar
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [imswimmer328] [ In reply to ]
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Really ?
Well SOMEONE (who was not doing the work for free) designed a single point failure into the control system didn't they ?
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [CeeGee90] [ In reply to ]
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See, now i know for a fact you’re talking bullshit and conspiring to cover up for Cervelo. When my P4 failed, they replaced it with a P5 *for free*, not a new P4 like you allege. I was outraged by their egregious business misconduct. Get your facts straight when trying to pull one over on us.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [mrlobber] [ In reply to ]
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mrlobber wrote:
Please note that the real possible problem being talked about in that video starts around 3:55. Namely, there's a wedge inside the frame which is the actual "stop" built in, but by the design, it essentially hits the wall of the steerer tube in every case when handlebars are rotated to around 70+ degrees - which can happen in many situations, as already pointed out in this thread. And you don't need to be a materials expert to think what happens when a quite thin layer of glued composites is repeatedly hit by a piece of metal - and in this case, even a sharp one!

Myself, as an owner of S5D, I'm quite shocked by this and would really appreciate Cervelo coming out with an explanation which is better than only "in ordinary use handlebars never turn that much", like in a statement which was quoted by Cervelo at WW forum (bolded areas by me):

Quote:
Thanks for reaching out to Cervélo. I hope you are enjoying your S5. Regular use and transport will not be effected by the design on the S5 headtube fortunately. Only crashes and poor handling will cause damage to the bayonet area.


The preload cone of the S5 is designed to act as a bumper, not a hard stop. Due to the bayonet on the S5 fork, it was decided there should be some protection for over rotation of the bars, which led to the shape of the preload cone. The intention was to maximize steering angle, so even in a best-case scenario, there is only about 1-2mm of clearance between the fork and frame. Due to the design of the system, a hard rotation could still lead to contact (think general twisting within the system). The preload cone works by acting on the inside surface of the head tube, which receives its shape from the internal bladder during the molding process. Minor difference in wall thickness or resin content can easily change the moment where the preload cones interacts with the inside of the head tube, this is why there can be a difference in the amount of rotation to either side. The steering angle on the S5 is roughly double the ISO requirement, so small variations are not a big issue.




That's some serious BS right there...

"...poor handling will cause damage to the bayonet area".



In what world a $5k frame should fail by poor handling?

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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [benonlees] [ In reply to ]
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Any time the bars of a SpeedConcept are turned more than say 35 degrees, you make nice carbon to carbon contact at the head tube and put a nice dent in the top tube. I have nice divots in there after the first time the bike was on a transition rack. Nothing stopping deep denting at all. At least this has a stop.

This is just an inherent limitation of an aero bayonet design it seems.

The Tririg Omni has a nice stop in the design, but in a fall, I think it could cause damage--but that is a fall. Bad things happen when you fall on aero bikes. Its not my dirt park jump bike.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [iamuwere] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be fine with this design on a TT bike where the possibility of a crash or random handlebar movement is really limited, but on an aero bike, which is destined to be in the middle of the pack in an aggressive sprint, not so much.

----------------------------
Need more W/CdA.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [benonlees] [ In reply to ]
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Couple of things to point out here. First of all, the "sharp piece of metal" that everyone is talking about (as if the pointy end of the stop is what's contacting the frame) is actually two flats. The flat parts of the cam are what's contacting the inside of the frame on each side, thereby spreading the load over the surface area of each flat. That's massively different than the sharp point making contact. Secondly, everyone (including the guy that made the video) is talking about carbon fiber like it's peanut brittle. It can take a fair amount of abuse, and it certainly can take some low-speed bumps from a flat on a cam. Now, if you crash or do something assinine where that metal piece makes contact with extreme force, then yes you may damage the frame. I can't see a situation where that happens in normal use, and I can't see how that's any different than wrecking your frame in any one of 1,000 other ways in a crash. Lots of hype and hysteria, IMO.
Last edited by: el gato: Mar 6, 20 15:27
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [el gato] [ In reply to ]
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el gato wrote:
Couple of things to point out here. First of all, the "sharp piece of metal" that everyone is talking about (as if the pointy end of the stop is what's contacting the frame) is actually two flats. The flat parts of the cam are what's contacting the inside of the frame on each side, thereby spreading the load over the surface area of each flat. That's massively different than the sharp point making contact. Secondly, everyone (including the guy that made the video) is talking about carbon fiber like it's peanut brittle. It can take a fair amount of abuse, and it certainly can take some low-speed bumps from a flat on a cam. Now, if you crash or do something assinine where that metal piece makes contact with extreme force, then yes you may damage the frame. I can't see a situation where that happens in normal use, and I can't see how that's any different than wrecking your frame in any one of 1,000 other ways in a crash. Lots of hype and hysteria, IMO.

You saying that the head-tube is meant to take the load of regular impact can be perceived as pure speculation.

As a potential buyer doing my due diligence in researching the frame, I wish Cervelo would step forward and say something concrete rather than “poor handling will cause damage....”

It would be good if they can define poor handling. Does accidentally knocking your bike over at a coffee stop count as poor handling? How about lifting up the bike without holding the front end resulting in the handle bars swinging over?
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [benonlees] [ In reply to ]
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benonlees wrote:

You saying that the head-tube is meant to take the load of regular impact can be perceived as pure speculation.

As a potential buyer doing my due diligence in researching the frame, I wish Cervelo would step forward and say something concrete rather than “poor handling will cause damage....”

It would be good if they can define poor handling. Does accidentally knocking your bike over at a coffee stop count as poor handling? How about lifting up the bike without holding the front end resulting in the handle bars swinging over?


No, saying the head tube is meant to hold up under normal use is just common sense. If it wasn't meant to, there would there would be a warning against it.

Besides this guy's video, is there any real-world evidence that this is an issue? Just treat the bike like you'd treat any bike and you'll be fine.

Edit: I have to come back to this point. You said that this guy is supposedly an ex aviation engineer who started his own carbon fiber repair business. And yet, at least 20 times in this video he appears to be in utter disbelief that a "sharp edged piece of metal" is making contact with the frame. This just shows a complete lack of understanding of how this stop even works. Who in their right mind would look at that mechanism and assume the pointy edge of that cam is what's making contact with that frame. Certainly not any engineer I've ever worked with. Just makes me take his whole rant with a giant grain of salt.
Last edited by: el gato: Mar 6, 20 16:28
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [el gato] [ In reply to ]
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el gato wrote:
benonlees wrote:

You saying that the head-tube is meant to take the load of regular impact can be perceived as pure speculation.

As a potential buyer doing my due diligence in researching the frame, I wish Cervelo would step forward and say something concrete rather than “poor handling will cause damage....”

It would be good if they can define poor handling. Does accidentally knocking your bike over at a coffee stop count as poor handling? How about lifting up the bike without holding the front end resulting in the handle bars swinging over?


No, saying the head tube is meant to hold up under normal use is just common sense. If it wasn't meant to, there would there would be a warning against it.

Besides this guy's video, is there any real-world evidence that this is an issue? Just treat the bike like you'd treat any bike and you'll be fine.

Edit: I have to come back to this point. You said that this guy is supposedly an ex aviation engineer who started his own carbon fiber repair business. And yet, at least 20 times in this video he appears to be in utter disbelief that a "sharp edged piece of metal" is making contact with the frame. This just shows a complete lack of understanding of how this stop even works. Who in their right mind would look at that mechanism and assume the pointy edge of that cam is what's making contact with that frame. Certainly not any engineer I've ever worked with. Just makes me take his whole rant with a giant grain of salt.

Of course they don’t have examples. It’s stupid. It’s not like Cervelo puts out shit bike and this is just another to the show how crappy they are. In generally they put out amazing bikes. But our forum keyboard engineers with no design experience with this bike or bikes in general just watched a YouTube video from a guy with some very questionable history and they’re gonna take his word over Cervelos history.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [el gato] [ In reply to ]
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I'm an engineer (not material)... from what I can see, the cam piece's flat surfaces does have hard edges and they will be the ones tcome into contact with the inside of the headtube which is round.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [Grantbot21] [ In reply to ]
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Not saying Cervelo didn't/doesn't make good bikes; I have over the years owned 6 of them and still have 2 including the last gen S5. But that doesn't mean they may not have design flaws from time to time, and even taking with a large pinch of salt, what the video shows is somewhat concerning, and deserving a more specific response from Cervelo in terms of what's their definition of "poor handling" which could cause damage. I would certainly also like to know how many cases Cervelo knew.

Grantbot21 wrote:
el gato wrote:
benonlees wrote:

You saying that the head-tube is meant to take the load of regular impact can be perceived as pure speculation.

As a potential buyer doing my due diligence in researching the frame, I wish Cervelo would step forward and say something concrete rather than “poor handling will cause damage....”

It would be good if they can define poor handling. Does accidentally knocking your bike over at a coffee stop count as poor handling? How about lifting up the bike without holding the front end resulting in the handle bars swinging over?


No, saying the head tube is meant to hold up under normal use is just common sense. If it wasn't meant to, there would there would be a warning against it.

Besides this guy's video, is there any real-world evidence that this is an issue? Just treat the bike like you'd treat any bike and you'll be fine.

Edit: I have to come back to this point. You said that this guy is supposedly an ex aviation engineer who started his own carbon fiber repair business. And yet, at least 20 times in this video he appears to be in utter disbelief that a "sharp edged piece of metal" is making contact with the frame. This just shows a complete lack of understanding of how this stop even works. Who in their right mind would look at that mechanism and assume the pointy edge of that cam is what's making contact with that frame. Certainly not any engineer I've ever worked with. Just makes me take his whole rant with a giant grain of salt.


Of course they don’t have examples. It’s stupid. It’s not like Cervelo puts out shit bike and this is just another to the show how crappy they are. In generally they put out amazing bikes. But our forum keyboard engineers with no design experience with this bike or bikes in general just watched a YouTube video from a guy with some very questionable history and they’re gonna take his word over Cervelos history.
Last edited by: dalava: Mar 6, 20 17:05
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [dalava] [ In reply to ]
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dalava wrote:
(snip) and even taking with a large pinch of salt, what the video shows is somewhat concerning, and deserving a more specific response from Cervelo in terms of what's their definition of "poor handling" which could cause damage.

I'm sorry - I'm not trying to be a jerk to you so please don't take this personally. I just don't understand this line of thinking. I think anyone that's ever ridden a bicycle intuititively understands what's normal use and what constitutes poor handling. It's this sort of thinking that results in getting a 30 page booklet with your new toaster telling you to not stick your head in the toaster, not to stick the power cord up your ass, not to make toast while in the bathtub, not to store paper products in the toaster, etc.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [benonlees] [ In reply to ]
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I feel like if you (not you necessarily, but anyone) bought this bike, you sort of deserve everything that comes along with it... this thing is hideous looking. Cervelo will be fine, they'll be able to replace all 27 of these that have been sold, and the 30 others they provided Team Sunweb. They'll be fine.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [el gato] [ In reply to ]
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el gato wrote:
dalava wrote:
(snip) and even taking with a large pinch of salt, what the video shows is somewhat concerning, and deserving a more specific response from Cervelo in terms of what's their definition of "poor handling" which could cause damage.


I'm sorry - I'm not trying to be a jerk to you so please don't take this personally. I just don't understand this line of thinking. I think anyone that's ever ridden a bicycle intuititively understands what's normal use and what constitutes poor handling. It's this sort of thinking that results in getting a 30 page booklet with your new toaster telling you to not stick your head in the toaster, not to stick the power cord up your ass, not to make toast while in the bathtub, not to store paper products in the toaster, etc.

It may be just me reading that response from Cervelo, I thought "poor handling" also includes when I am riding and not handling well, e.g. turning too far. And it's that "poor handling" I found to be troubling.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [Andres] [ In reply to ]
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Andres wrote:
I feel like if you (not you necessarily, but anyone) bought this bike, you sort of deserve everything that comes along with it... this thing is hideous looking. Cervelo will be fine, they'll be able to replace all 27 of these that have been sold, and the 30 others they provided Team Sunweb. They'll be fine.


I think it looks great, and is an awesome bike! I've seen a ton of them on the road. They sold way more than "27"
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [el gato] [ In reply to ]
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el gato wrote:
benonlees wrote:

You saying that the head-tube is meant to take the load of regular impact can be perceived as pure speculation.

As a potential buyer doing my due diligence in researching the frame, I wish Cervelo would step forward and say something concrete rather than “poor handling will cause damage....”

It would be good if they can define poor handling. Does accidentally knocking your bike over at a coffee stop count as poor handling? How about lifting up the bike without holding the front end resulting in the handle bars swinging over?


No, saying the head tube is meant to hold up under normal use is just common sense. If it wasn't meant to, there would there would be a warning against it.

Besides this guy's video, is there any real-world evidence that this is an issue? Just treat the bike like you'd treat any bike and you'll be fine.

Edit: I have to come back to this point. You said that this guy is supposedly an ex aviation engineer who started his own carbon fiber repair business. And yet, at least 20 times in this video he appears to be in utter disbelief that a "sharp edged piece of metal" is making contact with the frame. This just shows a complete lack of understanding of how this stop even works. Who in their right mind would look at that mechanism and assume the pointy edge of that cam is what's making contact with that frame. Certainly not any engineer I've ever worked with. Just makes me take his whole rant with a giant grain of salt.

Even if it’s the flat bit, “hard and sharp” is the right term to use in the context of a small but flat metal cam coming into contact with a carbon fibre laminate. I think you are 100% correct in pointing out that it is the flat bit of the cam, and I also think Cervelo is good reputable company and won’t be stupid enough to use the edge of the metal cam as the point of contact with the frame. However, I can’t help but feel this design is downright dodgy, or at the very least, a point of concern that needs more clarification.

I also get your point on the company not being able to give a list of “what not to do.” But in light of this video, as well as interest generated in forums, surely they can come out and give further clarification that is better than “regular use does not affect the design” and “only crashes and poor handling will cause damage.”
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [el gato] [ In reply to ]
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el gato wrote:
Couple of things to point out here. First of all, the "sharp piece of metal" that everyone is talking about (as if the pointy end of the stop is what's contacting the frame) is actually two flats. The flat parts of the cam are what's contacting the inside of the frame on each side, thereby spreading the load over the surface area of each flat. That's massively different than the sharp point making contact. Secondly, everyone (including the guy that made the video) is talking about carbon fiber like it's peanut brittle. It can take a fair amount of abuse, and it certainly can take some low-speed bumps from a flat on a cam. Now, if you crash or do something assinine where that metal piece makes contact with extreme force, then yes you may damage the frame. I can't see a situation where that happens in normal use, and I can't see how that's any different than wrecking your frame in any one of 1,000 other ways in a crash. Lots of hype and hysteria, IMO.
As an aerospace composite scientist I am very aware of the impact resistance properties of carbon fiber. Using words like 'fair amount', 'low speed bump', 'asinine', 'extreme force' all suggest you're guessing. We do extensive impact testing at work and if there is one big limiter for carbon it's its limited impact resistance. (Number 2 would be compression resistance). And as higher cost models use more high modulus fiber (vs standard modulus in cheaper frames) it becomes even worse. This design of using a solid metal piece to hit a thin carbon tube is asking for trouble. You really don't need much speed to make a significant impact (a lot of our products have specific impact requirements that come from aircraft engineers dropping their tools on these parts during assembly). I think this design is really weak, but could have been much better if there was a metal inner tube bonded to the carbon headtube and the impact would have been metal to metal. It would limit the strain on the carbon caused by impact and make it much safer.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [Benv] [ In reply to ]
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Great point on the high modulus carbon. Could changing the layup direction and fibre type at the impact zone help mitigate such a problem? Cause the engineers can’t be stupid right? Surely they have some measures in place that they just need to tell us.
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Re: “Cervelo S5 Fail” Your Thoughts [benonlees] [ In reply to ]
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benonlees wrote:
Great point on the high modulus carbon. Could changing the layup direction and fibre type at the impact zone help mitigate such a problem? Cause the engineers can’t be stupid right? Surely they have some measures in place that they just need to tell us.
Yes, ply orientation plays a big role. But if you optimize for impact by going with a more quasi-isotropic layup for example, you lose stiffness for the same ply count. So you'll have to add more plies to increase stiffness again which then again increases cost and weight.
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