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[long post] My benchmark swim didn't go as expected - need training advice
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I did a 16 km solo swim as an early season benchmark. It was done in a sheltered bay with minimal wind (BF 0 - 2), tide (less than 0.1 knots) and current. The air temperature was about 13 - 15°C and sea temperature was about 20 - 21°C. According to previous race results, I estimated my speed to be 2.5 km/h that I would complete it in 6:24. However I ended up completing it in 7:45, more than an hour more than expected. I'm so disappointed and worried now.

The main reason that I did the benchmark swim was because a 21.5 km lake race I signed up August this year in Europe was postponed to next year due to pandemic. I needed a result on a current-neutral course in calm water in order to base my further training on, and to plan my Channel swim next year. My original plan before the pandemic was to do the 21.5 km race in August, then do a 30 km rehearsal swim in winter. Now my plan is to do a 16 km benchmark swim in December (in calm water), and a 25 km rehearsal swim in February (in the open sea).

I based my speed estimation (2.5 km/h) on a number of race results, including the following shorter swims:
Apr 2019: 1:45 for 4.4 km, current neural
Aug 2019: 1:06 for 2.9 km, current neutral
Nov 2019: 1:21 for 3.7 km, current neutral
Nov 2020: 0:58 for 2.7 km, current neutral
and also my following marathon swims:
Jul 2019: 5:43 for 12.5 km, current neutral (my first marathon swim)
Jan 2020: 5:14 for 13.8 km, open current

My plan was to complete it in 6:24, feeding every 48 minutes with 50 g of maltodextrin mixed with 500 mL of water. However by about 7 km I was already feeling my lats and quads extremely fatigued, while I expected fatigue set in at around 2/3 of my swim. I was behind the schedule by about half an hour already halfway of the swim. I normally use 2-beat kick all the time but I couldn't kick properly in the latter half, and dragging my straight legs behind. Also my back was done as well. The following shows how my speed dropped over time:
SP - CP1 (0.8 km): 2.52 km/h
CP1 - CP2 (2.28 km): 2.35 km/h
CP2 - CP3 (3.68 km): 2.03 km/h
CP3 - CP4 (3.89 km): 1.88 km/h
CP4 - CP5 (2.28 km): 1.95 km/h
CP5 - EP (0.8 km): 2.14 km/h
The above does not add up to 16 km because each CP is a short segment around an Island / cape.


I'm so concerned now if I can continue my plan to do a rehearsal swim in February and swim the Channel in September. I can't even keep my speed in a warm and calm water swim. I can no longer see how I can sustain 25 km (my planned length of rehearsal swim) in the open sea with tides and swells in cold water (about 16°C). Moreover, my training isn't going well as well. When the pandemic caused my overseas race to be postponed, I stopped swimming nearly completely because I'm living at a place which is too hot to swim in summer. I restarted training mid-September but I have never returned to the level while I was preparing for my 14 km race last year because I basically started from 0. I got an injury while diving late November which caused me 1.5 weeks out of water, and pools were forced to close again under new sets of anti-COVID measure afterwards so I have never achieved consistency in my speed training. Therefore I judge from my training that I was only ready for 10 - 12 km.


What should I do in terms of training given the above, especially that pools are still closed under anti-COVID measure? Is it still practical for me to go for a rehearsal swim in February and my Channel swim in September?
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Re: [long post] My benchmark swim didn't go as expected - need training advice [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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I would honestly say, and you may not want to hear it, but with this information and with your previous posts on your swimming (I have followed them), the English Channel is a massive undertaking that I think you will struggle to complete given the additional factors of the environment you have to train in presently.
Remember that the point to point distance for the English Channel is the shortest possible distance, most people (and I swim with 2 people who have done it and one person who has done Rottnest 20 times now) will do somewhere in the order of 30-50% more than that distance given the tides at play. Factor in the weather and water temps and you are looking at a very very very long day and night out-at least 20 or so hours based on your current times, but that will stretch out massively in actual conditions.
The Channel swim is a massive undertaking, the people I swim with are top marathon swimmers and even for them it was massive. It is also very expensive and very weather and tide dependant. You need to be very solid as a swimmer as the chances of getting a good day to cross are pretty slim.
Have you considered a warmer climate marathon swim?
Is there a particular motivation driving you to do a marathon swim?
Any reason you don't want to come to Australia and do something like Rottnest or Port to Pub in Perth which will have warmer water and less cost?
Good luck.
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Re: [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Amnesia wrote:

The Channel swim is a massive undertaking, the people I swim with are top marathon swimmers and even for them it was massive. It is also very expensive and very weather and tide dependant. You need to be very solid as a swimmer as the chances of getting a good day to cross are pretty slim.
Have you considered a warmer climate marathon swim?
Is there a particular motivation driving you to do a marathon swim?
Any reason you don't want to come to Australia and do something like Rottnest or Port to Pub in Perth which will have warmer water and less cost?
Good luck.


I have done 2 marathon swims in warmer climates (about 20°C), one lake race and one ocean race. They are listed in my first post.

My original motivation was that it would be a fun thing to do while I do a working holiday in Europe. I planned to go on a working holiday next year. However my plan has changed so I'm considering emigrating to UK next year instead but my booked slot can't be postponed to 2022. I have 0 interest in Australia, I have no reason to go to Australia. There is nothing attracting me in Australia. I am only interested in Europe.
Last edited by: miklcct: Dec 17, 20 0:07
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Re: [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
Amnesia wrote:

The Channel swim is a massive undertaking, the people I swim with are top marathon swimmers and even for them it was massive. It is also very expensive and very weather and tide dependant. You need to be very solid as a swimmer as the chances of getting a good day to cross are pretty slim.
Have you considered a warmer climate marathon swim?
Is there a particular motivation driving you to do a marathon swim?
Any reason you don't want to come to Australia and do something like Rottnest or Port to Pub in Perth which will have warmer water and less cost?
Good luck.


I have done 2 marathon swims in warmer climates (about 20°C), one lake race and one ocean race. They are listed in my first post.

My original motivation was that it would be a fun thing to do while I do a working holiday in Europe. I planned to go on a working holiday next year. However my plan has changed so I'm considering emigration instead but my booked slot can't be postponed to 2022. I have 0 interest in Australia, I have no reason to go to Australia. There is nothing attracting me in Australia. I am only interested in Europe.

My advice has not changed.
I think it will be a long stretch for you to complete the Channel swim on your previous form. Happy to be proved wrong. I have seen what it takes to do the swim in a half decent time and even your best pace of anything you have done and published is a long way off that, without even factoring the additional current, temp and climate issues you are likely to face (along with the logistics of your trip and training from the sounds of things).
By all means prove me wrong, I would be delighted to be shown to be wrong, but I am also happy being the voice of reason, even if you don't want to hear it right now.
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Re: [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Amnesia wrote:
My advice has not changed.
I think it will be a long stretch for you to complete the Channel swim on your previous form. Happy to be proved wrong. I have seen what it takes to do the swim in a half decent time and even your best pace of anything you have done and published is a long way off that, without even factoring the additional current, temp and climate issues you are likely to face (along with the logistics of your trip and training from the sounds of things).
By all means prove me wrong, I would be delighted to be shown to be wrong, but I am also happy being the voice of reason, even if you don't want to hear it right now.

This half a year (November 2020 - April 2021) is a career break for me specifically for me to work on my swimming and to prepare for working holiday (emigration). If not because of COVID restrictions I'd be already in a very intense training programme in the pool now. I really want to get myself back on the path by February to complete a 2021 Channel swim. What should I do in my training now?
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Re: [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
Amnesia wrote:
My advice has not changed.
I think it will be a long stretch for you to complete the Channel swim on your previous form. Happy to be proved wrong. I have seen what it takes to do the swim in a half decent time and even your best pace of anything you have done and published is a long way off that, without even factoring the additional current, temp and climate issues you are likely to face (along with the logistics of your trip and training from the sounds of things).
By all means prove me wrong, I would be delighted to be shown to be wrong, but I am also happy being the voice of reason, even if you don't want to hear it right now.


This half a year (November 2020 - April 2021) is a career break for me specifically for me to work on my swimming and to prepare for working holiday (emigration). If not because of COVID restrictions I'd be already in a very intense training programme in the pool now. I really want to get myself back on the path by February to complete a 2021 Channel swim. What should I do in my training now?

Volume and lots of it!
For our Rottnest swim (19.7k) my coach and my friends coach make their decent swimmers do at least one 10k open water swim a week (mainly river based for us). You should be swimming 5-7 days a week.
Cold weather conditioning will also be important but does not need to start just now.
A good swimming specific strength program will do you wonders.
A layer of insulation on the body will also help with the cold....if the COVID kgs are not in place already you will need some extra fat on your body.
The channel swim is not like an ironman where even semi average people can make a 17 hour cut off....it is brutal.
I still worry that you have set your goals too high.

This is my coach doing his Channel swim....he swims on a CSS of around 1:14/100 LCM generally.....see how much hard work this was (granted this was a crappy day, but you don't know what your window will be like).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EKNCE9lZs
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Re: [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Amnesia wrote:

A layer of insulation on the body will also help with the cold....if the COVID kgs are not in place already you will need some extra fat on your body.
The channel swim is not like an ironman where even semi average people can make a 17 hour cut off....it is brutal.
I still worry that you have set your goals too high.

This is my coach doing his Channel swim....he swims on a CSS of around 1:14/100 LCM generally.....see how much hard work this was (granted this was a crappy day, but you don't know what your window will be like).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EKNCE9lZs


What do you mean by COVID kg? When I signed up for a channel slot I was just thinking that it would be like an Ironman minus the wear and tear of running (based on the expected completion time - elites do them under 8 hours, average joes do them in about 13 hours) although I haven't done one yet. At that time I was training for a full marathon but since it was cancelled I stopped running completely because I didn't enjoy running.

My CSS is currently around 1:50 / 100 LCM. Before the pools were closed under COVID restrictions I was doing interval training in the pool and it worked. I also do lessons with a total immersion coach as well.

And I definitely won't allow me to start given such weather forecast like the one in Paul's swim. This is not something I can endure for 20 hours. Last week I did a 9 km training swim in waves and swells (BF 4) and I was already feeling my shoulders.
Last edited by: miklcct: Dec 17, 20 1:17
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Re: [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
Amnesia wrote:

A layer of insulation on the body will also help with the cold....if the COVID kgs are not in place already you will need some extra fat on your body.
The channel swim is not like an ironman where even semi average people can make a 17 hour cut off....it is brutal.
I still worry that you have set your goals too high.

This is my coach doing his Channel swim....he swims on a CSS of around 1:14/100 LCM generally.....see how much hard work this was (granted this was a crappy day, but you don't know what your window will be like).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18EKNCE9lZs


What do you mean by COVID kg? When I signed up for a channel slot I was just thinking that it would be like an Ironman minus the wear and tear of running (based on the expected completion time - elites do them under 8 hours, average joes do them in about 13 hours) although I haven't done one yet. At that time I was training for a full marathon but since it was cancelled I stopped running completely because I didn't enjoy running.

My CSS is currently around 1:50 / 100 LCM. Before the pools were closed under COVID restrictions I was doing interval training in the pool and it worked. I also do lessons with a total immersion coach as well.

COVID kgs: the weight (kgs) you have put on because of the COVID limitations on exercise and hence weight gain....pretty common worldwide issue....
The Channel swim is not like an Ironman without the wear and tear. The swim volume required will place a huge strain on your body, hence a good strength program can help from an injury prevention viewpoint.
That CSS time and your open water times do not really appear to match up that well. Your threshold pace is easily over 3kph and over the shorter distance events you would not expect a massive drop like the times you report between your CSS and actual pace...eg my CSS when race fit for IM and HIM is around 1:28/100LCM and I will generally swim around 1:34/100m on race day, obviously the longer the open water swim the slower overall you will be and you need to factor in feeding etc. But on current projections you would be looking at a 15-20 hour crossing....that is not like a 17 hour ironman where you can softpedal the bike and walk the marathon....
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Re: [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Amnesia wrote:

COVID kgs: the weight (kgs) you have put on because of the COVID limitations on exercise and hence weight gain....pretty common worldwide issue....
The Channel swim is not like an Ironman without the wear and tear. The swim volume required will place a huge strain on your body, hence a good strength program can help from an injury prevention viewpoint.
That CSS time and your open water times do not really appear to match up that well. Your threshold pace is easily over 3kph and over the shorter distance events you would not expect a massive drop like the times you report between your CSS and actual pace...eg my CSS when race fit for IM and HIM is around 1:28/100LCM and I will generally swim around 1:34/100m on race day, obviously the longer the open water swim the slower overall you will be and you need to factor in feeding etc. But on current projections you would be looking at a 15-20 hour crossing....that is not like a 17 hour ironman where you can softpedal the bike and walk the marathon....


I don't have any COVID kgs because exercise does not help me to lose weight. No matter I swim more or less my weight stays mostly the same. Also, my CSS time (as taken from a 400 / 200 test) can't be sustained for 1500 m even in the pool, and open water is slower than pool because there are no walls and also no straight lines. (I estimate about 10% drop, which a good drafting cancels out - however in most of my races I couldn't get much drafting because the pack was much faster than me, and the only race I've done recently is a non-drafting race) My fastest 1500 m pool time was 0:28:54 last year. I still don't have a chance to time myself again this year yet. I hope that the restriction will expire before the unheated pool I use is due for annual maintenance in January and February.

When I signed up I was looking for a 15 - 18 hour crossing. I really don't want it to become a 20+ hour struggle for me, or worse. get pulled because the tide sweeps me away from Wissant and right into the Calais shipping channel.
Last edited by: miklcct: Dec 17, 20 1:30
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Re: [Amnesia] [ In reply to ]
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Do you feel like slamming your head into a wall yet?
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Re: [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
Do you feel like slamming your head into a wall yet?

Yes. But was not unexpected.
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Re: [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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Okay I probably have no real advice, other than to delay your crossing...

But I'm mostly posting here since you just said you can't hold your CSS for a 1500, even in a pool... this tells me that your CSS is slower than you think it is. The 200/400 test is a way to approximate your CSS (like a 20 minute or ramp test for FTP in cycling), and for you the approximation is quite a bit off. I'd say you do a 1500 TT and set that as your CSS to start. And swim significantly more than you are.
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Re: [long post] My benchmark swim didn't go as expected - need training advice [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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If I was coaching you, with all of the information you’ve provided in various swim threads you’ve started, I would advise you against attempting a Channel crossing in September. You aren’t ready from a training perspective especially with the continued Covid restrictions in place, but more importantly you aren’t ready from a mindset perspective. When there’s doubt, there is no doubt.

Hope this helps,

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
............ Also, my CSS time (as taken from a 400 / 200 test) can't be sustained for 1500 m even in the pool,


miklcct wrote:
I stopped swimming nearly completely because I'm living at a place which is too hot to swim in summer. I restarted training mid-September but I have never returned to the level while I was preparing for my 14 km race last year because I basically started from 0. I got an injury while diving late November which caused me 1.5 weeks out of water, and pools were forced to close again under new sets of anti-COVID measure afterwards so I have never achieved consistency in my speed training. Therefore I judge from my training that I was only ready for 10 - 12 km.

These quips from your posts tell me a lot of things, one of those is that you may just have a really high anaerobic capacity hence why you can't hold your CSS.

A better test may be a 3k or 5k TT in the pool. LCM would be better than scy or scm for the test

The second thing is that you're not yet fit enough yet to attempt the crossing. develop a plan to get you from where you're at to well beyond there.

Third after reading through the thread, neither do you sound willing to listen to people, nor do you seem to want advice even though you posted asking for advice.

In the end though, if you're asking if you should attempt it or not. I'll echo that you're not ready, mentally or physically.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Dec 17, 20 8:04
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Re: [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
If I was coaching you, with all of the information you’ve provided in various swim threads you’ve started, I would advise you against attempting a Channel crossing in September. You aren’t ready from a training perspective especially with the continued Covid restrictions in place, but more importantly you aren’t ready from a mindset perspective. When there’s doubt, there is no doubt.

Hope this helps,

Tim

x2...channel crossing is for lifelong swimmers with their head in the game who know what they are doing. Its not for the rest of us
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Re: [long post] My benchmark swim didn't go as expected - need training advice [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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You need an open water coach and you need to do exactly as they say without question. Otherwise give it up.
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Re: [Abergili] [ In reply to ]
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You have to swim a lot regularly to swim well. That goes for a 50 to the English Channel. If you can’t trading regularly, I think you have to delay.

Do the best you can now to not loose too much, but time out of the water needs is a killer.
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Re: [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
SnappingT wrote:
If I was coaching you, with all of the information you’ve provided in various swim threads you’ve started, I would advise you against attempting a Channel crossing in September. You aren’t ready from a training perspective especially with the continued Covid restrictions in place, but more importantly you aren’t ready from a mindset perspective. When there’s doubt, there is no doubt.

Hope this helps,

Tim

x2...channel crossing is for lifelong swimmers with their head in the game who know what they are doing. Its not for the rest of us

And then some good luck too.
2 guys I know have attempted it..both good OW swimmers..
One had to get out after 10 hrs when the tides changed massively and his last half mile became another 5 with missing the cape.

The other completed this year, despite Covid scuppered training (he got an arrangement to be swimming for 5 or 6 hrs a few times a week in the local OW venue when it re-opened in June. ... his Channel crossing was 10 years ithe making. Many cancellations and postponements over the previous 2.

As for Covid fat. That's the least of your problems. In fact it probably helps - there's not many skinny long distance swimmers outside of elite racers. And the average channel swimmer certainly isn't scared of cake.
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Re: [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]
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SnappingT wrote:
If I was coaching you, with all of the information you’ve provided in various swim threads you’ve started, I would advise you against attempting a Channel crossing in September. You aren’t ready from a training perspective especially with the continued Covid restrictions in place, but more importantly you aren’t ready from a mindset perspective. When there’s doubt, there is no doubt.

Hope this helps,

Tim

If the COVID restrictions are lifted later in the month and I get access to an unheated pool for 3 - 4 more continuous months, I still have hope. Otherwise I think I may need to lose my deposit because my September slot can't be postponed to another year.

But I don't see hope in the COVID situation as the number of daily cases are still in the 80-90 range with a significant portion untraceable and a few community transmission chains in residential buildings.
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Re: [BobAjobb] [ In reply to ]
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BobAjobb wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
SnappingT wrote:
If I was coaching you, with all of the information you’ve provided in various swim threads you’ve started, I would advise you against attempting a Channel crossing in September. You aren’t ready from a training perspective especially with the continued Covid restrictions in place, but more importantly you aren’t ready from a mindset perspective. When there’s doubt, there is no doubt.

Hope this helps,

Tim


x2...channel crossing is for lifelong swimmers with their head in the game who know what they are doing. Its not for the rest of us


And then some good luck too.
2 guys I know have attempted it..both good OW swimmers..
One had to get out after 10 hrs when the tides changed massively and his last half mile became another 5 with missing the cape.

The other completed this year, despite Covid scuppered training (he got an arrangement to be swimming for 5 or 6 hrs a few times a week in the local OW venue when it re-opened in June. ... his Channel crossing was 10 years ithe making. Many cancellations and postponements over the previous 2.

As for Covid fat. That's the least of your problems. In fact it probably helps - there's not many skinny long distance swimmers outside of elite racers. And the average channel swimmer certainly isn't scared of cake.

The good luck is also related to how strong you are as a swimmer

5 kph, 4 kph, 3 kph, 2.5 kph swimmers all deal with 1.5-3kph currents differently all the way from still overcoming the current and making forward progress, to ending up in an endless pool to being washed backwards. Everything is harder if you are a slower swimmer. This is the basic math.
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Re: [kerikstri] [ In reply to ]
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kerikstri wrote:
Okay I probably have no real advice, other than to delay your crossing...

But I'm mostly posting here since you just said you can't hold your CSS for a 1500, even in a pool... this tells me that your CSS is slower than you think it is. The 200/400 test is a way to approximate your CSS (like a 20 minute or ramp test for FTP in cycling), and for you the approximation is quite a bit off. I'd say you do a 1500 TT and set that as your CSS to start. And swim significantly more than you are.

I'm definitely going to swim more in the coming months as planned. I have contacted my pilot two times (August and November this year) to see if my slot can be delayed to another year but the answer was negative. Therefore it's either try my best, giving up, or change to a relay. However I don't have enough relay partners yet. (I only have one partner who is slower than me and much less experienced than me) I don't want to give up at this moment and want to get myself back in path for a 2021 crossing.

Last year, my 200/400 test produced 1:52 but my 1500 m TT produced 1:56. That's 4 seconds difference over 100 m, i.e. 1 minute difference over 1500 m.
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Re: [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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miklcct wrote:
kerikstri wrote:
Okay I probably have no real advice, other than to delay your crossing...

But I'm mostly posting here since you just said you can't hold your CSS for a 1500, even in a pool... this tells me that your CSS is slower than you think it is. The 200/400 test is a way to approximate your CSS (like a 20 minute or ramp test for FTP in cycling), and for you the approximation is quite a bit off. I'd say you do a 1500 TT and set that as your CSS to start. And swim significantly more than you are.


I'm definitely going to swim more in the coming months as planned. I have contacted my pilot two times (August and November this year) to see if my slot can be delayed to another year but the answer was negative. Therefore it's either try my best, giving up, or change to a relay. However I don't have enough relay partners yet. (I only have one partner who is slower than me and much less experienced than me) I don't want to give up at this moment and want to get myself back in path for a 2021 crossing.

Last year, my 200/400 test produced 1:52 but my 1500 m TT produced 1:56. That's 4 seconds difference over 100 m, i.e. 1 minute difference over 1500 m.

As has been mentioned now numerous times. Those times of yours are not consistent with a swimmer with a reasonable likelihood of success with the crossing. You have been well advised here that you should not proceed for next year.
Futility is a bit like pornography, I know it when I see it but it can be hard to describe.
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Re: [long post] My benchmark swim didn't go as expected - need training advice [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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I think the answers to your questions are implicit in your initial post. You do not (at the moment) have the fitness, speed or training necessary for such a massive undertaking. If you start a Channel swim under-prepared, your chances of success are pretty much zero. The best advice I can offer you is to build incrementally towards the goal of swimming the Channel - maybe you need a three or five year plan to get you there. Don't give up on your goal, but recognise what the goal requires of you and do what you need to do. If you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail...

Best of luck with whatever you choose to do.
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Re: [samtridad] [ In reply to ]
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samtridad wrote:
I think the answers to your questions are implicit in your initial post. You do not (at the moment) have the fitness, speed or training necessary for such a massive undertaking. If you start a Channel swim under-prepared, your chances of success are pretty much zero. The best advice I can offer you is to build incrementally towards the goal of swimming the Channel - maybe you need a three or five year plan to get you there. Don't give up on your goal, but recognise what the goal requires of you and do what you need to do. If you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail...

Best of luck with whatever you choose to do.

My plan started late 2018 already. I was keeping it well until the pandemic came February this year. The problem now is COVID restrictions (with a lot of loopholes which caused the virus to be imported again after periods of near-0 infections) enacted time to time since February have made me impossible following my training plan, and I don't see any hope for the pandemic to be over. And I'm stuck with a 2021 booking which is either use it or lose it.
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Re: [miklcct] [ In reply to ]
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Everyone in the world is facing those covid restrictions, in various forms. And many many people, including myself, have had to forego competition plans and lost lots of monkey.
You’re starting from not much fitness and that’s just life. I’d build to it the best you can, reassess a couple of months out if it’s truly sunk cost, and try for another window if you’re still too far away.
The best advice I can give is that you build fitness from where you are today, not where you want to be in x number of months. Swim where your hands are.
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