Wall sits are good quad strengtheners, and even though it's a static (isometric) exercise, it's still good. I like Romanian lunges too. These strength exercises balanced off by the leaps or some other plyometric/explosive type of exercise can do wonders.

One thing to remember about exercising (resistance exercise or aerobic/cardio) is that your body adapts to whatever you're doing, and after 8-12 weeks, gains are minimal. Switching your workout from squats to wall sits or Romanian lunges - or my current favorite, crane lunges - can be very beneficial.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
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OK! Elwood. I don't know the names for the 4-5 lunges I've used or seen. Can you describe each?
Thanks

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

I doubt that there's any cycling specific benefit. Strength gains are specific to the range of motion trained + a few degrees. Since wall sits are static, there would be little carry over except when your hip and knee are at the same angle as in the wall sit. Wall sits are good at making you better at wall sits. And they hurt. BTW, last time I checked, either Ashrita Furman or Paddy Doyle had the record with a 4+ hour wall sit.

JC

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Jonathan Cane
City Coach Multisport
http://www.citycoach.org

"I don't know the names for the 4-5 lunges I've used or seen. Can you describe each?
Walking lunges I'm sure you know, as well as the standard front lunge (forward and back to the beginning. To that, add the front-to-back, where instead of walking you lunge forward, then lunge back without putting your foot down in between.
After that, you have directional lunges, sometimes called multi-planar, which would add lateral (to the side, emphasizing adductors and abductors) and transverse, which would involve picking up the foot (from starting position) and turning 90º before performing a lunge similar to Tyrone Power in Zorro...

Crane lunges are balance lunges, where the starting position has you standing on one foot, with your opposite raised to make the thigh parallel to the ground. All lunges are performed by stepping into the lunge (front, back, side or transverse, and then returning to the starting (crane) postion. Try 'em, they're fun.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
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"Since wall sits are static, there would be little carry over except when your hip and knee are at the same angle as in the wall sit."
- - The benefit comes from varying from one's regular training. Wall sits are one of many options for adding strength to the legs. Sport specific movements can be added, but if you do nothing but pedal a bike (the only truly sport specific move) your training will get stale.

My money's on Paddy O'Doyle. I think only an Irishman would be dumb enough to do a wall sit for four hours!

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
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thanks! that does sound interesting, especially since weakness in the adductors and the gluteus medius and minimus MAY contribute to ITBS and knee problems.

Besides, I like varying things.

Now, if only I can remember that next time I'm there.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

My money's on Paddy O'Doyle. I think only an Irishman would be dumb enough to do a wall sit for four hours!

Actually it looks like even Mr. O'Doyle's record has been broken. Also, don't underestimate Ashrita's stupidity. In fact he holds the Guiness record for holding the most Guiness records. Among other things, he has somersaulted 12 miles of Paul Rever's trail, traveled 81 miles while balancing a milk bottle on his head, has traveled 21 miles while continuously jumping on a pogo stick, and "joggled" (running while juggling) a 3:22 marathon.

He currently holds 22 records and has held 87. I once told him I was planning to climb the World Trade Center 24 times in 24 hours and he was totally unimpressed.

Ouch.

JC

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Jonathan Cane
City Coach Multisport
http://www.citycoach.org

Unless you are *really* weak, such strengthening will do nothing for your cycling. The forces required for even 53/13 riding are pretty low, such that most anyone can do it. It's doing it for many, many reps that's hard. And that's aerobic, not strength-limited. For the same reason, squats, etc., are a waste, unless of course you are frail and/or a beginner where any training would be beneficial.

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

"Unless you are *really* weak, such strengthening will do nothing for your cycling."

Really, no weights, no squats, no lunges? I don't think you'll find a lot of elite coaches, cyclists or triathletes agreeing with you on that. Especially for older athletes like doc and I, strength training is very valuable. when you can apply 250 watts, your continuous wattage will likely be about 100-115. If, OTOH, you have the leg strength to push 1000 watts, suddenly 200-250 continuous isn't all that challenging.

If you're very new at the sport, then ride, ride ride. When you find your returns diminishing, and you're still not riding at the front, consider strength training. Remember, ANY workout will get stale after 10-12 weeks. In order to keep things progressing, you need to vary your parameters.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
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Yes, really.

I don't much care what elite coaches, cyclists, triathletes, etc think. They're wrong on this one. There are some solid studies (see cyclecoach.com for info) showing no benefit from weight training for endurance events. Of course, postural issues and serious weakness are exceptions.

Cousin E, by your logic, track sprinters would be able to pour out some serious continuous watts then, since they can peak at >2000w. Come to think of it, powerlifters would be good at it, too. But we know that ain't so. And opposite to that, skinny climbers, who sprint at a measly 800w, wouldn't be able to turn a big gear. And we know that ain't so as well. The key thing to understand is that unless you are *really* weak, you can turn more then enough peak power. Sustaining it for an amount of time that's meaningful on a bike isn't a strength issue, but rather an aerobic issue.

It took me awhile to buy the arguments against weight training, too.

BTW, just because you hear/read that coaches like Charmichael prescribe weight training doesn't mean it's so. I'm CTS-coached, and when I opted to stop lifting, my coach was glad. It's fairly clear to me that at least part of the reason these coaches include it is because they're 'expected' to.

Someone is almost sure to say "Lance lifts!" and my answer will be "So?" He could be succeeding despite that, or he might not lift so much as you think...

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

"I don't much care what elite coaches, cyclists, triathletes, etc think."
- - Apparently.

"There are some solid studies (see cyclecoach.com for info) showing no benefit from weight training for endurance events. Of course, postural issues and serious weakness are exceptions."
- - There are lots of studies showing lots of things. I've seen studies that say there's no benefit to stretching. I don't pay much attention to studies like that. There's usually a flaw in the process.

"Cousin E, by your logic, track sprinters would be able to pour out some serious continuous watts then, since they can peak at >2000w. Come to think of it, powerlifters would be good at it, too. But we know that ain't so."
- - Actually, that IS so. The difference is that (compared to Lance for example) track sprinters generally weigh in at around 200 lbs and up. They also don't do the endurance training that Lance and his ilk do. It's not an either/or situation, you don't have to stop riding to do strength work.

"And opposite to that, skinny climbers, who sprint at a measly 800w, wouldn't be able to turn a big gear. And we know that ain't so as well."
- - Actually, again, your conclusion doesn't hold up. Those climbers can turn a big gear, just not as effectively as the bigger guys. Again, and especially with climbing, size matters.

"The key thing to understand is that unless you are *really* weak, you can turn more then enough peak power. Sustaining it for an amount of time that's meaningful on a bike isn't a strength issue, but rather an aerobic issue."

"It took me awhile to buy the arguments against weight training, too."
- - Just remember the first rule of any training, which is that if you don't vary your work, you won't improve. Winter weight training represents a change of pace. Any good physiologist understands the need to vary training loads and parameters to achieve maximum results.

"BTW, just because you hear/read that coaches like Charmichael prescribe weight training doesn't mean it's so. I'm CTS-coached, and when I opted to stop lifting, my coach was glad."
- - Perhaps based on specifics of your profile your coach was prepared to agree, and then maybe he/she just didn't want to argue. BTW, I was Carmicheal coached for a while. I couldn't have been less impressed.

"It's fairly clear to me that at least part of the reason these coaches include it is because they're 'expected' to."
- - And because it has efficacy. Look I'm not saying skip your rides and spin sessions to do squats at 1 rep max. There are lots of exercises in the gym, some without weights, that add strength and some muscle mass to the legs and benefit cycling.

Someone is almost sure to say "Lance lifts!" and my answer will be "So?" He could be succeeding despite that, or he might not lift so much as you think...
- - I don't think he lifts a lot, but he shreds a lot of muscle in three weeks every July, and you've gotta put it back.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

All ex-ski racers know these well. They work. It's also fun to beat your hands against the wall 2x then clap, you know: thump-thump-clap ... thump-thump-clap ... "We will we will rock you" -TB

This is a subject argued in massive length on bike forums (see cyclingforums.com for more info than you'd ever want). So, I'll leave at this...

CousinE, you make some good points (i.e., add back some muscle after the season, etc). But the bottom line, with some exceptions, is that weight training isn't going to make you a faster rider. I wonder if guys like Anquetil (sp?) or Merckx -- or any other pre-lifting days hour record holder -- did significant training off of the bike? Seems they did just fine without the variation you speak of.

I agree re: Charmichael, and that was kinda my point. I'm just waiting for my membership to end.

And as far as skiing, I'd guess wall sits to be great for that. It's what you do when you ski!

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Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

All ex-ski racers know these well. They work. It's also fun to beat your hands against the wall 2x then clap, you know: thump-thump-clap ... thump-thump-clap ... "We will we will rock you" -TB

Wall sits have some value for ski racers because they stay in a static position - just as in a wall sit. That doesn't mean that there would be a value to wall sits for any activity which requires considerable movement at the hips and knees.

JC

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Jonathan Cane
City Coach Multisport
http://www.citycoach.org

"I wonder if guys like Anquetil (sp?) or Merckx -- or any other pre-lifting days hour record holder -- did significant training off of the bike? Seems they did just fine without the variation you speak of."

First of all, just because they didn't lift weights doesn't mean they didn't do lunges or wall sits.

Second of all, you'll note that in cycling, as in virtually every sport, the records keep dropping as training techniques are modified. We could go on and on, but I think we're both out of salient blather...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

I would make the point you dont weight train for cycling performance (the benefits are probably pretty small), you weight train for health and general conditioning for lifes activities. All (well most!) of us have lives outside of training, moving a TV, yardwork, putting boxes up in a storage area. Weight training should help give you the functional strength to perform these activities without hurting yourself. It also has benefit in maintenance of bone density and avoiding muscle mass loss with aging.

I would add that the closer the weightlifting activity to the movement the better the carryover so I cant see wall sits being a lot of help to a triathlete/cyclist. But if you were a triathlete/cyclist who liked to go skiing over the winter some leg strengthening including wall sits as well as balance and plyometrics could prove beneficial.

"But if you were a triathlete/cyclist who liked to go skiing over the winter some leg strengthening including wall sits as well as balance and plyometrics could prove beneficial."

Being stronger is better. Stronger could mean having the ability (muscular endurance) to hammer long. One of the guys who trains with me had a great season this year after devoting most of his winter to cross country skiing. As part of his ski training, I think he may have done a few wall sits...

Wall sits and lunges are almost sacred cows in our sport. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

The majority of the strength gains come from increased neuromuscular efficiency, the ability to recruit a maximal number of motor units. In power sports most athletes show a "synchronous" firing of their motor units where as endurance athletes show a "asynchronous" firing pattern that enables some to rest while others are recruited. This does inhibit maximum force development. I see weight training as improving that "jump" which can be important in cycling, less so in triathlon, but you still sometimes have to increase your power to get around another athlete.

I am not saying dont weight train, Its beneficial to everyday life. I remember taking a canyon hike at the end of a race season. In order to cut my body weight to a minimum I had pretty much stopped weight training. At one section you had to climb up a boulder holding on to a rope, I nearly didnt make it up while a couple of girls we were hiking with (climbers) made it look easy. I started back in the gym the next week! I just dont think people should approach it with the attitude of solely to improve their sports performance. They need to do a variety of exercises, not just ones that are "sports specific".

Kevin Riseborough

PT, CSCS

"And as far as skiing, I'd guess wall sits to be great for that. It's what you do when you ski!"


Do you actually ski? If you do, at any reasonable level, you will know that skiing is a series of complex squatting movements, which include side to side and twisting movements of the knees and hips and torso, or whatever. Other than a tuck on a smooth slope or just gliding on the flats, one is NEVER in a static 'sit.'

I view wall sits as just one more variation that adds quad, glute and hamstring strength. Lunges, squats, plyometrics just add to that. (Yes! They all work your hammiesm, too.)

BTW, a female road racer with whom I am acquainted says that she just isn't as fast when she hasn't been able to get to the gym regularly. I'm nowhere near good enough to tell.

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Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

"a female road racer with whom I am acquainted says that she just isn't as fast when she hasn't been able to get to the gym regularly."

And whether that's in her head or actually true, it works for her. My take on all this is a bit different perhaps, because I'm not a triathlete in the pure sense. I'm a guy who loves to do active things, including triathlons. I love rock climbing, where muscle is a factor, and I love to swim, bike, run, kayak, roller blade, orienteer or whatever. At my age (same as yours, doc) I just love it that I can still get out there and that there are a lot of kids who can't hang with me.

Among other things, as a one-time (and not very good) gymnast, I love to do exercises that only gymnasts or very well conditioned athletes can do. As a trainer, I love it when some high school or college hot shot athlete can't do some of the exercises I show him. It's also rewarding when they come back at the end of the season and talk about how the core strengthening exercises I taught them helped them to excel.

I've been told, and I'm sure it's true, that I could race better if I dropped about 10-15 pounds of upper body muscle. I'm not interested in doing that. At my age, if I let it go, I may never get it back. Perhaps in a few years I'll get more serious about triathlon and let my weight down in an attempt to dominate the 64-69 age group. Initially I thought I could do that just be outliving the rest, but then guys like Dean Harper come out of retirement and beat me like a rented mule...

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Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...

Rather than try to replicate the case made here, you can read it for yourself if you're interested. http://www.cyclingnews.com/...ss/?id=strengthstern

Docfuel -- yep, used to ski often, converted to snowboarding ~10 years ago. True, you're never static, but your ROM is very limited, so a wall sit would at least be of more use to skiing than cycling (where I'd bet it's near-zero).

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**************
Too f@ckin depressed from various injuries to care about having a signature line.

Sponsored by Blue Shield PPO.

the methodology of the weight training studies was not clear. Did they take a group a cyclists and split them randomly into continued cycling only and continued cycling with the addition of muscle group specific strength training and then compare before and after TT, climbing, etc.? Certainly, if you significantly decrease your aerobic training when adding strength training, you will lose aerobic fitness.

I will add, that, at 53, I will echo Elwood. If I stop weight training, I might not get it back. And, the number one cause of disability in old folks is loss of strength (not aerobic capacity.)

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_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.

<< yep, used to ski often, converted to snowboarding ~10 years ago. True, you're never static, but your ROM is very limited >>

Mebbe that's why you switched to knuckle-dragging, so you wouldn't hafta move yer lower body at all. ; )

(I'm joking - I do both, but riding was not an "ohmyGOD, this is so awesome I'll never ski again" type of thing for me, it's just a nice change of pace)

Downhill skiing done correctly uses quite a bit of ROM, other than making casual GS turns that is.

Skiing bumps uses way more ROM than biking or running, as I always find to my lament the day after a hard session of them (no matter how "fit" I am from cycling, etc beforehand).

Look at any pic of a skier (racer, free-skier, whatever) taken mid-turn going "mach schnell" and you will see one leg almost fully extended, and the other almost fully flexed. Limited ROM? Nope.



Back on topic - I think wall-sits are a good, useful exercise. Isometric doesn't mean bad. They are a nice change o' pace.

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float , hammer , and jog

Just casting an agreeable vote with CE. All other things equal, the stronger athlete will always be the better athlete. There is a correlation between muscular strength and musclar endurance.

Wall sits can be very tough ... especially if used as a "finsiher" done at the end of hard workout. Australian strength coach Ian King always seems to have wall sits in his program somewhere.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --