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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [Aztec] [ In reply to ]
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I think the seeding according to your time, and having it noted with different colored caps is a pretty good idea.

As far as the validation, here in Spain, for 10k run races (10,000 people registered, sometimes more) you get seeded according to your expected time. The way to validate that time is that when you register, you have to bring proof of the time you say you can do. Its enough to print out the results list from the last race you participated in.
If youdont have that, or dont bring it to registration, you get seeded at the back. I think this could help a bit..
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [mullinsm] [ In reply to ]
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It's funny how this thread (like most on ST) turns into an IM discussion, primarily. Many of these posts above are discussing mass starts at an IM-distance race with several thousand people.

What seems to have prompted the discussion, however, was an unfortunate death a couple weeks ago at a WAVE-start, SPRINT race, with a few hundred folks. From the accounts that I have read, the poor guy wasn't swum over or kicked, etc, he was just a shitty swimmer. Wave start, mass start - it wouldn't have mattered.

I have no solutions to the problem (if there even is one), just making an observation.
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [TeamBarenaked] [ In reply to ]
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Good points. The race I got the email about was also a wave-start event: 1/3 mile swim, 3 minutes between waves, no wave over 50 people. They even had "novice" category waves that went last.

My original inquiry was if anyone else (RD's, regional officials, etc) had any inside information regarding forthcoming rules changes. By the responses received here, I think that the answer is "no."

To the RD who posted just above -- if mass starts are the worst from your prospective in terms of liability, are wave starts better and time-trial starts (ala Lifetime Fitness MSP) the best? Unfortunately, from a liability standpoint, the best option for the organizer of a triathlon may be to hold a duathlon instead. Or maybe just a 5K. How about a trivia night?

In any case, it will be interesting to see how things shake out. Thanks for all the comments.

mm
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Dont you think the swimmers that know they will be in front already start at the front[/quote]
Don't you think that swimmers that know they won't be at the front start in the front? I've seen it happen at the 70.3 championships, the dudes in the first row would not let me there even though I told them I'm a 26min2k swimmer and they were 30+ min 2k swimmers. So they got trampled in the first 5m of the race.

Never underestimate the stupidity of people. It's amazing how poorly people think.
Agree totally. As Mark Twain (I think) said, nothing is foolproof because fools are too damm ingenious. Lots of road races encourage you to self seed, but you know that almost everyone seeds themselves too fast. So, you have to figure out where you really ought to be relative to other runners, not what the signs say. More seriously, I've only done about 10 tris and I learned really quickly where to seed myself on the swim. Being a reasonably competent swimmer and having played some water polo in HS helped out. But, it's mostly just being sensible and also not getting upset when something doesn't go just as planned because things are going to happen, especially in dark lake water where you can't see your own hands let alone people around you, no matter how you try to organize things.
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [Learn] [ In reply to ]
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Remember the good ole days when you had to know how to swim to enter a triathlon!!
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Dont you think the swimmers that know they will be in front already start at the front[/quote]
Don't you think that swimmers that know they won't be at the front start in the front? I've seen it happen at the 70.3 championships, the dudes in the first row would not let me there even though I told them I'm a 26min2k swimmer and they were 30+ min 2k swimmers. So they got trampled in the first 5m of the race.

Never underestimate the stupidity of people. It's amazing how poorly people think.
I'm not calling you out or anything but I've never understood this. It's a race, not a time trial. Races involve trafic even in the water. If you want to be up front, get there early.
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [John Hirsch] [ In reply to ]
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"It only takes one pro going 24 mph smashing into someone on a mountain bike going 12 mph before that idea starts making mass swim starts seem like a good idea."
- - That's already happening when myself and guys faster than me (Moats, Harper, etc.) come out of the 50+ wave and ride 22-25 mph through some slow AGers. Why can't we seed by established finish times? That would make things a lot safer.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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"a fish who remembered her manners and didn't swim over anyone, hit anyone, kick anyone, or splash anyone at her race Saturday"
- - What a WEENIE!!


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]
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"the odds are very good that you're also a good enough swimmer to be able to overtake the previous wave without causing them distress."
- - I nearly broke my wrist at an Oly last year when I caught up to the fourth wave ahead of mine (4 minute gaps) and some moron was prairie doggin'. I swam through a few folks, taking care to sight my line, then put my head down and took about six strokes and *BAM* I smacked the back of this guy's head with the back of my wrist. He had just stopped and was treading water. Anyone that challenged (his 1500 time had to be nearly double what mine was (~21:00) should be in a special wave and go off last, for his safety as well as mine.


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [Learn] [ In reply to ]
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I'd forgotten all about that hippo and the insane amount that was spent on it. Good ole G'dub.
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [austin79] [ In reply to ]
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No.........they just need a wetsuit, doncha know? Water temperature be damned!

G


It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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I'll hold my hand up and say I'm not a great swimmer by any standards. 87 mins for the IM swim is a PB for me. But I know its rough up at the front so I seed myself accordingly and go near the back. Three IM swims now with 1000s of starters at each and its never been a problem.


Its up to the individual to work out their own level and start accordingly. Personally I would think its worse to have waves at an IM event as people would get swam over by faster people behind ?
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [gleveq] [ In reply to ]
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I'll hold my hand up and say I'm not a great swimmer by any standards. 87 mins for the IM swim is a PB for me. But I know its rough up at the front so I seed myself accordingly and go near the back. Three IM swims now with 1000s of starters at each and its never been a problem.


Its up to the individual to work out their own level and start accordingly. Personally I would think its worse to have waves at an IM event as people would get swam over by faster people behind ?
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [mullinsm] [ In reply to ]
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I vote for waves, and no double loop swims that invite disaster. Are there any 70.3 races that have wave starts?

As for the debate over which is more dangerous, just remember that if you fall off your bike you usually don't drown. And by the way I'm all for closed bike courses too, since I'm slow out of the water (and usually in a late wave) and spend the rest of my races passing people. I'd rather take my chances passing people on the bike/run than go through the chaos of a mass start.

If you're a FOP swimmer, I'd go out on a limb and say the mass start is probably a non-issue for you. The MOP swimmer on the other hand has to deal with all kinds of stuff.
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [mullinsm] [ In reply to ]
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I suspect most injuries in the swim take place because of someone doing a breaststroke kick. If you are swimming beside or on top of someone you can get an elbow or flutter kicked. They might even pull the ripcord on your wetsuit or slash at your goggles. If you are on someone's feet you might get a hard flutter kick as a warning. No big deal usually. But if you swim up on someone who is not comfortable sighting, clearing their goggles, or waiting their turn to go around a bouy, or who should be a duathlete...and they are doing a breaststroke kick...then you at very least jam a finger or two. Breaststroke in triathlon should not be allowed. I know there is no way to police it but in murky water it is probably the biggest danger. One good kick to the head and you could just be swimming with the fishes. The only time I loose my temper is when I come upon a chronic breaststroker.
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [sweddy] [ In reply to ]
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>>Are there any 70.3 races that have wave starts?<<

Oceanside
Vineman

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"a fish who remembered her manners and didn't swim over anyone, hit anyone, kick anyone, or splash anyone at her race Saturday"
- - What a WEENIE!!


nah, I just didn't swim fast enough to catch any of the earlier waves. My swimming is slipping away :(



maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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"nah, I just didn't swim fast enough to catch any of the earlier waves. My swimming is slipping away :( "
- - It must have been a short swim. The secret to harmonious swimming: Be faster than the rest of them. Unfortunately, at my age, that just gets me into a scrum with earlier waves, sometimes as many as four of them...


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [Erik Clark] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with qualifications for swimming.

Swimming, particularly open water swimming, is inherently more dangerous than many other activities. Throw in the water war at the beginning of a triathlon and it just gets more dangerous.

One needs to be a stong swimmer (compared to the general population) to be able to complete a triathlon swim safely. Ya can't just remember taking lessons at the Y as kid, and hope to grunt it out on the day.

On the bike or run, if something goes wrong, you just stop. In swimming, for arguments sake that isn't really an option.

By having simple qualifications, even using existing ones like Red Cross or similar, would be a step forward to improved safety.

I'm a strong swimmer by general standards and not bad (not great tho) in tris (IM about 60 minutes) and I love rough weather. Rougher the better as I extend my advantage. Many people, even IM swimmers, get nervous in rough water. Not a good sign.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [tridork] [ In reply to ]
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i don't understand why people are so against this, a simple standard for basic swim competency. to me it seems so reasonable, clearly we are in the minority.



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Striving to have sex more than 66 times per year
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [Mac] [ In reply to ]
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IM Swim seeding can be based on a verifiable previous race result. Just like with Kona lottery winners, anyone entering a IM should be required to at least complete a half sometime in the year previous. Sorry to open up yet another can of worms.
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [kblahetka] [ In reply to ]
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Coolness should take a back seat to safety for sure.

However, non-mass starts tilt the playing field, albeit only a little.

I like mass starts too, I can handle the cut and thrust and manage to make some headway over those that don't do so well. I lose all my advantage when I get on the bike, so it's a bit of a moot point, but I still like a level playing field.

Wave starts have their merits, but one needs to be careful when people are 'racing'. Pros or any top AG athlete will be racing their opponents as much as themselves, so when they are in front,t hey need to know they are in front. No use having a guy start 3 minutes behind, but finish 2 minutes behind, and steal a Kona slot for example, simply because the guy in front didn't even know there was a 'race' going on by some guy behind.

Like IMNZ a couple of years ago. As #1 seed, Cameron Brown headed off first, about 60 sconds ahead of #2. Raced to stay in front of course. #2 was able to "key" off the leader and get accurate splits of the distance to first so is able to pace himself more accurately. Cameron wasn't able to do that and that was a big disadvantage. Eventually he missed the top spot by only a few seconds. If it was head to head, I bet he would have been able to pick it up a bit to bet the other guy across the line. (There needs to be a level playing field, wherever possbile IMHO)

Since it was a shortened race, there will always be a controversy on whether he kept kis IMNZ winning streak alive. Since it was a race put on by IMNZ, his streak could be considered broken. Since it wasn't actually a proper IM race (no swim and approx 1/2 bike an 1/2 run) it wasn't a proper IM race therefore, by winning again this year. he DID actually keep his IMNZ streak alive.

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [Cousin Elwood] [ In reply to ]
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"nah, I just didn't swim fast enough to catch any of the earlier waves. My swimming is slipping away :( "
- - It must have been a short swim. The secret to harmonious swimming: Be faster than the rest of them. Unfortunately, at my age, that just gets me into a scrum with earlier waves, sometimes as many as four of them...



LOL. It was a 1500m swim but with a current and I felt like, for having the current, my time was kinda slow. The course wasn't marked at all, it was wicked hard to sight anything. I went all over the place (laughs). But we did get to climb up this really cool ladder onto the docks!

The secret to harmonious swimming: Be faster than the rest of them. that line is almost as good as the "swimmers aren't arrogant, we're just that good" that you came up with this winter.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [Erik Clark] [ In reply to ]
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I'm used to being in the minority. Middle aged, middle class, straight white guy in a long term monogamous relationsip with an average job. You better believe I'm in the minority! LOL Hell, I even admit to being MOP!

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"
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Re: "more stringent swim rules" coming soon? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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"I felt like, for having the current, my time was kinda slow."
- - Current is like wind, it affects the smaller athletes to a greater extent than us big boys. At 175, headwind and current aren't nearly as rough on me as they are on you. As to sighting, if you're only SECOND fastest in your wave, then you can draft and let someone else worry about the line.

"almost as good as the 'swimmers aren't arrogant, we're just that good' that you came up with this winter."
- - Now I'm blushing. I didn't know anyone paid any attention to my nonsense!!


Cousin Elwood - Team Over-the-hill Racing
Brought to you by the good folks at Metamucil and Geritol...
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