my thoughts exactly. I just don't see how they can help but I'm probably missing something.

Kevin

Isn't a person running oversome one in the middle of the swim when a later wave catches up just as dangerous? Also if they increase the intervals you will have lapping going on on the two loop swims. The pros caught the slower people at IMFL in 2005. That was not very cool for them. That was the worst swimmers being run over in by the fastest people, in an unforseen spot in the middle of the race. The pros only had a 15 minutes head start. If that was bigger we would have run over more people. It seemed worse to me than a mass start on a huge beach where people can seed themselves and spread out and where all the contact should happen in shallow water.

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I actually think in water starts are better than beach starts. The only fear I had with a mass beach start was tripping and getting trampled in shallow water.

I think that, on your race registration, you should have to give a seed time for a swim. Then they can start all the fast swimmers first, and we won't have to swim through all the slower swimmers who would otherwise start ahead of us... and then they can spend all day passing us on the bike like they're supposed to ;)

love from,
a fish who remembered her manners and didn't swim over anyone, hit anyone, kick anyone, or splash anyone at her race Saturday :P

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Though if you're good enough to be a FOP swimmer who is overtaking a previous wave, the odds are very good that you're also a good enough swimmer to be able to overtake the previous wave without causing them distress.

Provided that the swimmers in the previous wave are moving either straight or at least in a consistent direction, and not pulling a crazy Ivan less than five feet from my hands.

I don't think the middle is where it as bad but the very start. Tons of chaos and splashing, just hard on the life guards. Again I'm not arguing for starting in waves, I'm just surprised it hasn't happened yet.

Exactly. Stronger swimmers that are used to sharing crowded lanes are very capable of making a last second dodge without disrupting their strokes too much. Unless the slower swimmer makes a wild change in direction, which certainly happens, but for the most part, major collisions are avoidable. Random breastroke kicks-- those are a different matter.

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Goooo HIPPO!

I personally like mass starts a LOT more and in my opinion, IF THERE IS ROOM for a mass start it is no worse than a mass start. Again this is assuming there is room and you're not starting 30 deep on shore....

That beind said waves are great on a shorter swim as it seperates people out but on a longer swim you still end up with later waves swamping earlier waves and although drawing out the time between waves is a decent idea it forces later starters to often face hotter weather and draws out the time needed to complete the race which in some locals can make it a bit harder to get permits.

I'm curious how many deaths occur during the start portion of the race versus somewhere midway during the swim where it is already partially spread out). It seems to me that the deaths that you hear about are always in the latter portion of the swim or am i just out of touch here?

Another option, SELF SEEDED WAVES. With chip timing, why not. I'm all about the mass start for competition and excitement's sake but if we're argueing that this is just about going out there and having fun why not set it up as:

1st wave - elite men
2nd wave - elite women
The above are ONLY eligible for overall awards and cannot roll down to age group slots

Age group waves are seperated into "competitive age groupers" and "cruiser age groupers" or something like that.
-Competitive age groupers are grouped into wider age group start brackets than normal (as there are now less people) and are eligible for age group awards.
-Cruiser age groupers are started after them in "A", "B", "C" groups based on their expected swim times.

Complicated and totally not thought through but in a way it breaks down each type of racer and puts them into their own appropriate category getting rid of a bit of the mix that often is the problem in races.

Not only that, I think this will greatly reduce the number of local races available due to prolonged logistics with road closers and such. I agree, you assume the risk and shouldn't be out on the course if your that out of shape and that poor of a swimmer. They do have beginner races.....why can't they start there.

If you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen. I don't mean this in a malicious way. Everyone knows what the IM swim start is. Your choice is to assume the risk or not to race. Our society is continually moving toward,

1. Not allowing individuals to assume risks (e.g. someone else decides that they will make the choice for them and remove all risk).

2. People knowingly entering risky situations and then blaming someone else when things go wrong. This is the other side of the coin and why #1 is becoming so prevalent.

This is very unfortunate. For all the debates about mass swim starts and all the drafting IM is what is is and is a very unique experience. Hopefully they will leave it alone (maybe cut back the field size a little) and people can either just accept it, or do some other race.

Dude, having seven Ironman races under my belt (including Florida 2006 and CDA 2007 and Placid several times) I can tell you regardless of of pristine Mirror Lake or pretty choppy GOM at FL 2006 the mass start is a swimming machine. However, it is an assumed risk, like anything elese, like riding your bike on a road with lots of several ton pieces of metal motoring behind you while talking on crackberries.

[reply]I think that, on your race registration, you should have to give a seed time for a swim. Then they can start all the fast swimmers first, and we won't have to swim through all the slower swimmers who would otherwise start ahead of us... and then they can spend all day passing us on the bike like they're supposed to ;)

love from,
a fish who remembered her manners and didn't swim over anyone, hit anyone, kick anyone, or splash anyone at her race Saturday :P[/reply]

That's a pretty good start. I'd modify that to... Specify your swim speed at registration, and you get a cap of a certain color. Stack, or seed, the swimmers by their cap colors. Let the fast color caps in the water first to tread water. The kayakers can patrol that and ensure the groups stay ordered properly before the cannon goes off. Should be reasonably easy to spot people in the wrong zone. The RDs just need to focus a bit more on the topic and it'll be fine. I don't recall any such discussion before any of my 70.3 races.

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"That's a pretty good start. I'd modify that to... Specify your swim speed at registration, and you get a cap of a certain color. Stack, or seed, the swimmers by their cap colors. Let the fast color caps in the water first to tread water."

Dont you think the swimmers that know they will be in front already start at the front? The problem lies with the people that cant swim that still go to the front, and those are the same people that would not be truthful about a realistic seed time.

I'm wondering: of all the 3 sports which discipline is usually the one that people train the least for? I would bet that its swimming. I remember in highschool swimming we swam at least 5,000-6,000 yards a day, 5 times a week - and the longest event was 500yds.

I know a few people who participate in triathlons from sprint to Ironman distance who only put in minimal training for the swim leg.

Races used to seed swimmers in just this way in the 80's. Usually for each certain time grouping (19:00-20:00 min. 1.5k for example) they would assign each grouping a number then wrote it on the swim cap, we were supposed to gather by the number at the start. Of course, it never seemed to work...I believe because most did not know, or lied, about their swim speed.

This could work if everyone had to verify a seed time for the swim. No verification time? You get seeded in the back.

Now, how to go about verification...hmm?

I also prefer mass-start swims, and not because I'm a strong swimmer who has no problems with a crowd. I like them because I don't get into a previous wave in the water and then have no idea how I'm doing against my REAL cometition for the rest of the race.

If the waves were separated by enough time, then it wouldn't be an issue, but in every wave start race I've done, I have no idea how I stack up in the AG until the results come out.

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This doesn't apply to half-IMs and less, but as far as IM's are concerned, the problem with wave starts is that there is time that elapses between waves. So what? With a 17 hour window and permits that often require the RD to close things down at midnight - any wave that goes off at 7:10, 7:15, or 7:whatever AM is going to have their 17-hour race cut off shorted by the 10, 15+ minutes that it takes to get all the waves off.

Back in the day, the Mrs Ts triathlon used to make you prove you can swim. You'd have to a) show them race results from a prior race or b) go to the beach and get a waiver signed by the lifeguard stating that you can swim in open water.

...plus family members, of course.

[reply]Seeded starts allowing for a mass finish with everyone crossing the finish line at the same instant (2000ft wide) would make great TV. [/reply]

Well it didn't quite work like that but the New Balance 1/2 Iron in Victoria BC a few weeks ago did a chase format. The faster waves started later. There was a cash prize for the first person across the finish line. I think Jonnyo won overall but just missed the cash prize.

I did see or hear of any crashes or problems but there might have been.

Hello DougM and All,

While thinking 'Outside the Box' maybe some cash or a preme for the amateur's might be fun .... did the cash prize for the first athlete crossing the finish line at the NB 1/2 include amateur's?

For a mass finish getting everyone seeded would be a chore but using previous race results would be a good start. (no pun intended)

Race liability and safety issues may give impetus to a rethink on mass starts vs. wave starts.

A few years back at IM Europe (Roth) they started the 65 and over AG before the Pros. It made the race a lot of fun for the AG though the Pros had to suffer passing through us.

Seemed to work OK though.

What do you think?

Cheers,

Neal

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Cheers, Neal

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[reply]did the cash prize for the first athlete crossing the finish line at the NB 1/2 include amateur's? [/reply]

I believe it was whoever crossed the line first, no restriction.

Finally, a topic which boils my blood! USAT needs to step in and change the rules. Until you have been an RD and put thousands of athletes in the water since 1994, many close friends some of which stood up with me in my wedding and club rookies just doing their first Tri as well as raced every distance IM and under, don't talk to me about mass starts being an assumed risk, part of the sports lure, fun or any of that other crap!
I have advocated better safety in the water for years. The bottom line is risk management and protecting the athletes in the water as best you can. Anyone hear of negligence and liability? Those are two words that an RD gets to know very well from attorneys, insurance agents, USAT officials, family and many other when things go very badly.
I wrote the ITU long course manuel in 1996 and can tell you first hand there is a better, safer, more racer smart plan already layed out for USAT. ITU required a host of minimum standards USAT still hasn't implemented.
Wake up! Unless you have been responsible for putting 1300 athletes in the water, don't lecture on what you would feel like if 1299 got out. 1299 is a bad number.

Mass starts are wrong at all levels. Period.

ST

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