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"more hard runs off the bike"
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From the interview w/ Rebeccah Wassner, womens winner at St A's:

"Much of my recent development is due to more hard runs off the bike and a lot of time trial workouts followed by hard intervals. I think that really helped and brought me to another level. A lot of thanks must go to the work I did with coach Cliff English this February in Arizona where I got used to running hard off the bike."

I can swear I'd seen threads that said BRICKS aren't beneficial. Funny prior to yesterday I wasn't aware that bad advice was given on the internet.

I guess I'm gonna have be more careful believing what I read ;)
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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You make a good point. At some point soon you might even hear a pro credit weight training with bringing their performance to a new level. That would be ironic.
FWIW, I've never been swayed in my support of Brick workouts.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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i think doing brick work outs depends on how many races you do. less races means a few more bricks.

for many of us, a few brick work outs a season can sub in for that feeling you get after the bike.

but thats all it is though, just a feeling. i cant see how it would make you significantly faster than just training at a higher velocity in both running and cycling.
Last edited by: nproximos: Apr 29, 09 11:07
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [nproximos] [ In reply to ]
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i cant see how it would make you significantly faster than just training at a higher velocity in both running and cycling.

see that just it. It's BRICKS in addition to higher intensity in both R/B. I don't advocate giving up the later.

By the quote it seems to have worked for her. Weekly (short) BRICKS, as prescibed by my plan (written by a 7 time Kona Qualifier) will continue to be a staple for me.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [nproximos] [ In reply to ]
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One often overlooked benefit of bricks, especially multiple bricks such as continous 5*(800m-5k), is the inclusion of two hard workouts in one session which leaves more time for recovery on other days. The quality of the session might be slightly less compared to similar single sport workouts. However, I believe that the benefits outweigh significantly.
(The only exception are OD pro athletes who might have to develop raw "speed" rather than strength endurance.)

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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [uli] [ In reply to ]
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agreed. Similarly, my plan calls for "bike sandwiches" - R/B/R. These are killer workouts but the points in your post are spot on for these too.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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Funny just got done with a 35 mile bike and 6.5 mile run. Going to swim and run tommorow then after a 4 hour break, ride to work. Dont think you need more then 2 or 3 bricks a week before it starts to catch up and be negative for your average age grouper. Then again it all depends on the individual and how well their body recoups from the work out. Lets remember also olympic and pro triathletes have massages , ice baths, heat therapy, etc , etc.... all waiting for them after they are done. Its not like they are your average age grouper. I enjoy the brick just for the workout and adrenalin rushes. I am not saying I am fast far far from it.

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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [uli] [ In reply to ]
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Heaven forbid du/triathletes actually do a workout that requires and works transition and bike mount skills!

1st Place, 50-55 2018 USAT Duathlon Sprint Duathlon National Championships, National Champion; 2nd Place Overall, 2018 Virginia Duathlon; 3rd Place, 50-54, 9th overall, USAT Long Course Duathlon (Miamiman); 4th Place Masters, 10th overall, 2018 Kiawah Island 1/2 Marathon
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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I have curtailed my Slowtwitch surfing dramatically this year, so let me get this straight -- there is a school of thought that bricks ARE NOT good workouts for the average age grouper? That is truly news to me. I can only speak from my own experience, but I definitely saw significant performance gains when I added a weekly brick to my training schedule. Nothing major -- just a three mile run after either a relatively short (20-25 mile) or longer (50+ mile) bike ride. I found that it just got my legs used to transitioning from biking to running, and thus, in races I no longer felt like I had "dead legs" for the first mile or so (it is also a great way to "kill two birds with one stone" for people with limited training time like myself). Your results may vary, but I am just a bit surprised to hear the effectiveness of doing bricks is being called into question. Just as a point of reference, for sprint/Olympic distance races I usually average 21-22 MPH for the bike and run in the high 6:00/low 7:00 range...


http://achukumba.blogspot.com/
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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From the interview w/ Rebeccah Wassner, womens winner at St A's:

"Much of my recent development is due to more hard runs off the bike and a lot of time trial workouts followed by hard intervals. I think that really helped and brought me to another level. A lot of thanks must go to the work I did with coach Cliff English this February in Arizona where I got used to running hard off the bike."

I can swear I'd seen threads that said BRICKS aren't beneficial. Funny prior to yesterday I wasn't aware that bad advice was given on the internet.

I guess I'm gonna have be more careful believing what I read ;)

Well in this case, she speaks specifically about the run after the bike. She didn't mention that the benefit was the brick itself, more the hard run afterwards.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [M~] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
From the interview w/ Rebeccah Wassner, womens winner at St A's:

"Much of my recent development is due to more hard runs off the bike and a lot of time trial workouts followed by hard intervals. I think that really helped and brought me to another level. A lot of thanks must go to the work I did with coach Cliff English this February in Arizona where I got used to running hard off the bike."

I can swear I'd seen threads that said BRICKS aren't beneficial. Funny prior to yesterday I wasn't aware that bad advice was given on the internet.

I guess I'm gonna have be more careful believing what I read ;)

Well in this case, she speaks specifically about the run after the bike. She didn't mention that the benefit was the brick itself, more the hard run afterwards.
Spiltting hairs, no? Yes she said "running hard off the bike" O.k. so her benefit came from running hard, off the bike. some of the benefit came form it being a brick. shakes head.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [achukumba] [ In reply to ]
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I have curtailed my Slowtwitch surfing dramatically this year, so let me get this straight -- there is a school of thought that bricks ARE NOT good workouts for the average age grouper? That is truly news to me.
Yes and some of it comes from coaches errr, people who charge others for their services.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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I think this may be one of those areas where one size does not fit all. I think bricks are beneficial in training both the legs and brain to run after cycling. A lot of the benefit can be achieved by a relatively short, easy run after a ride. A hard run of the bike may better simulate a race but may also have an increased risk of injury and increased recovery time. Most people just need to train more and the risk of injury involved with hard running off the bike may not be worth it
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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personally, I think the main point is that she was running hard. It just happened to be off the bike.

https://www.miles4matt.run/
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [M~] [ In reply to ]
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got it. fair enough.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [Johnny99] [ In reply to ]
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may also have an increased risk of injury and increased recovery time.

The exact opposite is true.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [Kensho] [ In reply to ]
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may also have an increased risk of injury and increased recovery time.

The exact opposite is true.
No, it's both true and false. It all depends on the whole training context and all other surrounding factors.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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My coach who used to coach Pauli Kiuru among others thinks that bricks are the most important aspect of training, at least ironman distance. And I agree. The best way to train your muscle endurance and metabolism is with doing long bricks where you progressively elevate your speed and finish with a run at good pace. The key is running at good pace, not sloppy jogging. When you focus on the run you keep the bike shorter and the other way around. The same philosophy was also used by 2008 Lanzarote winner Tiina Boman and Tom Söderdahl who finished 8th on Kona in 2006. That doesn´t exclude doing your running with good technique and stride, on the contrary you can work on your technique in conditions that are similar to competition. And of course, in addition to the brick workouts, you do sport specific workouts.
Another philosophy, which I know Mika Luoto, who finished 8th on Kona 2002, and Jonas Colting, adherred to was using short cross over runs to finish off long bike rides. Just like 15-20 minutes to get into the rhytm and teach your body to make the shift. According to that same philosophy, doing long runs on the day after a long bike simulates the effect of having to run on top of cycling, while you still can do the run fresh with energy.
Doing shorter distances, I think brick training is a must. You simply have to teach your body to be able to change swiftly, getting the blood streaming in the right muscles quickly. I know sprint pros who for example do interval sessions with bike+run+bike+run+bike+run, like 10 min bike hard, then 1K hard run, then 10 min hard bike etc. or swim+run+swim+run+swim+run.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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i finally transferred to a command where i can cummute on my bike. i typically ride into work 3 days a week, 25 miles one-way and then run as soon as I get in. My race times have decreased quite a bit, I notice I can also get up to speed quicker, ie,,,biking legs go away quickly and I can get into the run stride faster. I will usually run 3-6 miles after the ride into work and depending how I feel, I will try to keep a pace that is not to fast.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [uli] [ In reply to ]
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Please elaborate.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [Marcus] [ In reply to ]
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We used to take our trainers to the track and do bricks like that and loved them.They made race day a lot easier.As they say "you have to train harder than you race".

That being said I do believe that here on ST too much of the advice is given without telling people that everyone is different and not all programs or workouts apply to everyone.There is way too much of a difference in age,talent,experience,health,available training time..etc for all the advice to be applied across the board.

It would take me a couple of months of solid training to be strong enough to recover from intense brick sessions but I know once I was fit ,they would help me a lot with the short races I will be doing later this year.

.
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [Kensho] [ In reply to ]
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Please elaborate.

It all depends on how you structure the brick workout around your other training as well as on the individual.
Running on pre-tired muscles might increase the danger of injury short-term as well as it might increase injury-resistance long-term.

With training methods I am always cautious to be black or white.

_________________________________________________
CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK
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Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [stillrollin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
I have curtailed my Slowtwitch surfing dramatically this year, so let me get this straight -- there is a school of thought that bricks ARE NOT good workouts for the average age grouper? That is truly news to me.
Yes and some of it comes from coaches errr, people who charge others for their services.
Assuming you have 10 to 15 years of base, you can graduate to bricks....
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Post deleted by Kensho [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: Kensho: Apr 29, 09 14:31
Re: "more hard runs off the bike" [dvfmfidc] [ In reply to ]
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i finally transferred to a command where i can cummute on my bike. i typically ride into work 3 days a week, 25 miles one-way and then run as soon as I get in. My race times have decreased quite a bit, I notice I can also get up to speed quicker, ie,,,biking legs go away quickly and I can get into the run stride faster. I will usually run 3-6 miles after the ride into work and depending how I feel, I will try to keep a pace that is not to fast.
Hrm.

Since the COmmuting is a relatively new thing for you, you can't necessarily attribute the race time decrease specifically to the brick, as you appear to have added at least 75 mph per week of biking, which will also help decrease run times and/or the bike time as well.

John



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