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"long slow rides are a waste of time"
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as per this article:
http://www.usatriathlon.org/...ast-your-competition
but my read on Friel and Fitzgerald and others with the big books out (and what i have been doing), is they espouse the "do your slow rides slow and your fast rides fast" philosophy (and same goes for the run). For these purposes i consider a "slow ride" Z2. Most tempo/threshold rides i have seen in these plans never really do any significant mileage in Z4.

Is this debate old news? thoughts appreciated
thanks
SS
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Long, slow, short, fast are not very useful words around which to form any kind of consensus, or develop a training plan.


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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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If you're doing "slow" rides at 2/3 of FTP, that's a specific training stimulus. Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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I respect your opinion but can you respectfully leave the coffee out of this.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Long slow rides are one of the most enjoyable ways there are to spend a day.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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Quantum wrote:
If you're doing "slow" rides at 2/3 of FTP, that's a specific training stimulus. Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.

Nothing for anyone or nothing for you? I never do that type of ride due to time limitations, but it seems like it would do something - especially for folks newer to cycling. That being said, my impression from limited reading is that the Barry P frequency approach doesn't necessarily cross over to the bike. Different stuff going on physiologically, right?

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
Long, slow, short, fast are not very useful words around which to form any kind of consensus, or develop a training plan.

This times 856,732.

Had a guy ask me if I agreed that triathletes should have a higher, somewhat shorter swim stroke. I asked him higher than what and shorter than what, that ended the discussion. Too imprecise to be meaningful.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Whatever cardio or power benefit long, slow rides may or may not have, I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer.


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Last edited by: MOP_Mike: Jun 8, 11 18:07
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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MI_Mumps wrote:
Quantum wrote:
If you're doing "slow" rides at 2/3 of FTP, that's a specific training stimulus. Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.


Nothing for anyone or nothing for you? I never do that type of ride due to time limitations, but it seems like it would do something - especially for folks newer to cycling. That being said, my impression from limited reading is that the Barry P frequency approach doesn't necessarily cross over to the bike. Different stuff going on physiologically, right?
In terms of physical stress and training, unless you're very new at cycling, no, it won't do anything for you. There's nothing wrong with tour biking, but in the context of sport, doing a 5 hour ride at 16 miles an hour, assuming you're on relatively flat roads and putting minimal effort in, isn't going to do anything beyond maybe strengthening your riding muscles (ie back, neck, etc.)
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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joe fiels posts are a waste of time.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer

I'd say it's bc they trained wrong not b/c they did or did not ride their long rides in the aero position. Lack of fitness won't fix stupid.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer


I'd say it's bc they trained wrong not b/c they did or did not ride their long rides in the aero position. Lack of fitness won't fix stupid.


awesome. I now have a sig!!!
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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sandtiger steve wrote:
as per this article:
http://www.usatriathlon.org/...ast-your-competition
but my read on Friel and Fitzgerald and others with the big books out (and what i have been doing), is they espouse the "do your slow rides slow and your fast rides fast" philosophy (and same goes for the run). For these purposes i consider a "slow ride" Z2. Most tempo/threshold rides i have seen in these plans never really do any significant mileage in Z4.

Is this debate old news? thoughts appreciated
thanks
SS

all depends on how much time you have to train. >15 hrs, you have to have lots of LSD as you won't be able to sustain the intensity of a tempo or SST/subthreshold. <8hrs, you better get enough training stimuli in each ride to see some meaningful adaptations. Vary accordingly when you have between 8 & 15 hours.

If my ride is less than 2 hours, i don't do Z2 as i can't get enough training stress in that amount of time. However, a five hour long ride is technically unsustainable at Z3, and i try to nail my LSD at the top of Z2 power. These rides are often solo efforts, and they'll hurt. There will be quite a bit of aerobic decoupling as my HR will drift 10bpm above its usual Z2 levels. Personally, i've turned into a believer. I built base through December and then did threshold work starting in January, but did few long Z2 rides. For all that, I went from 255W to 272W going from November to early April.

I got injured mid April and missed 1/2 of the remaining days in April along with 2/3 of May training days. I thought my FTP would plunge from 272 down to 250. Resuming three weeks ago, all i did were some tempo/SST but i made sure to have a long Z2 ride every weekend. Just this past Monday, i set a new 20' record at 292W despite not being so fresh as I did 243W for 35 min earlier that ride. Without having done any threshold work, I apparently regained all of my previous FTP and then some more. Mark me down as a believer.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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You mean >30? Spending 8-10/15 week at z2 sounds like a waste of time to me

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
all depends on how much time you have to train. >15 hrs, you have to have lots of LSD

if someone is training about 18 hours per week, roughly 10 of those hours will be cycling, in a fairly balanced program. No need to poke around looking a every crack in the road if you are riding 10 hours per week.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [meuf] [ In reply to ]
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As we often say in emergency medicine, "there is no cure for stupidity" :)

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
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I bet they benefit your upper body if you ride them "aero". Look at any IM race at about mile 80 -- half of the riders are on the base bar because they can't hold an aero position any longer

I'd say it's bc they trained wrong not b/c they did or did not ride their long rides in the aero position. Lack of fitness won't fix stupid.

Or because they have a shit position. Or both...


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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [boilerup] [ In reply to ]
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aren't you the guy who works with my buddy Coby? the tarpon are ripping down here this year.....let me know if you guys come down. for the first time n a long time it's like the old days.....catching not fishing.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
Long, slow, short, fast are not very useful words around which to form any kind of consensus, or develop a training plan.

Similarly, so are terms like "waste of time" unless you know what the ride goals are.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
You mean >30? Spending 8-10/15 week at z2 sounds like a waste of time to me
I agree up to a point. If the 8-10 hours are divided into 4-5 rides, those z2 are almost worthless as nothing is likely stressed enough to force adaptation. However if those 8-10 hours would be divided into two weekend rides in order to maximize aerobic adaptations, at high Z2 intensity of 0.70IF, 8-10 hours gives 560-700 TSS points, which i'd say is quite considerable (at least to my 4.0w/kg FTP slow ass). Then again, this is purely for base and early build periods.

If i ever get the luxury to train 15 hours, I'd do 9 hours on the weekend at high Z2 and 6 hours in a mix of SST and tempo. Below 15, the hours of SST+ tempo becomes comparable to hours at Z2. When i was doing 12hrs, it was just one weekend Z2 (~5 hours) and a ton of SST + tempo. However, i don't think this built wide enough a base for me.

desert dude wrote:
In Reply To:
all depends on how much time you have to train. >15 hrs, you have to have lots of LSD


if someone is training about 18 hours per week, roughly 10 of those hours will be cycling, in a fairly balanced program. No need to poke around looking a every crack in the road if you are riding 10 hours per week.

sorry for the confusion. I was referring to bicycle only training.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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AND because they have a shit position.

Fixed that for you

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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I'm confused, obviously. How fast are you supposed to do your long rides? Or should you not do them? I would think going fast and long would take time to recover from.




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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Jiowa] [ In reply to ]
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Jiowa wrote:
I'm confused, obviously. How fast are you supposed to do your long rides? Or should you not do them? I would think going fast and long would take time to recover from.

I'm doing tempo work at between 22-26mph (Depending on wind, hills, fatigue, etc), and my long ride is 4 hours at ~ 18-20 mph. I'm on a very similar schedule to what dd described, about 16 hrs a week with 9 of it on the bike.

John



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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
at high Z2 intensity of 0.70IF, 8-10 hours gives 560-700 TSS points,

I've got over 1000 power files and can't recall a single week where someone even if scheduled 8-10hrs at high z2 got in 560-700TSS by riding 8-10hours at high z2. When you see what they are actually doing with traffic lights, cars, dogs etc, to get >560 TSS you are going to have to do intervals.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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sandtiger steve wrote:

Is this debate old news? thoughts appreciated
thanks
SS

If you ride lots of "long slow rides" you will get very good at riding long ... and slow.

Training should reflect race demands.
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