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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:
However if those 8-10 hours would be divided into two weekend rides in order to maximize aerobic adaptations, at high Z2 intensity of 0.70IF, 8-10 hours gives 560-700 TSS points,

8-10 hours at .7IF = 392-490 TSS
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [boilerup] [ In reply to ]
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boilerup wrote:
As we often say in emergency medicine, "there is no cure for stupidity" :)

yeah in primary care we say that too!
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Long, slow distance is fundamental in any program, in my opinion. However, I think most people misunderstand what "slow" means. It's relative. Think of "slow" compared to how fast you are capable of going vs. what you think is slow in general terms. Long, slow rides should be a zone1 or zone 2 effort. For some people that might be 15 mph or slower. But for some that may be much closer to 20 mph (or faster). To some that may not seem like a "slow" ride, but when compared to how fast those people are capable of going it is a slow ride.

Personally, I hate the term long, slow distance because it's misunderstood and people think it means they need to putz around all day putting out very little effort. A long ride in zone 2 is a hard effort. If you go long enough in zone 1, that can be a good effort too.

I biked 1,000 miles in May. 70% of my time was spent in zones 1 and 2. 20% was tempo. 10% was threshold or above. I finished the month (Memorial Day) with a slow 150 mile ride (by "slow" I mean it was a low zone 2 effort which ended up being a little more than 18 mph). After a few days of recovery, I set a new PR on my 20 minute threshold test.

Long, slow distance works (especially if you're training for an ironman), but it needs to be part of a balanced program that includes some harder efforts.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Quantum] [ In reply to ]
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Quantum wrote:
Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.

Really? The above sounds like a very good time...

I know enough to know I don't know enough...
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [uberslug] [ In reply to ]
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uberslug wrote:
Quantum wrote:
Long, slow rides in groups, where you're not doing any work, in a draft pack, stopping for lunch halfway through and coffee at the quarters, does not do anything for you.


Really? The above sounds like a very good time...

agreed - this sounds exactly like the sort of thing that will keep me enjoying cycling, and thus keep me coming back to my bike to do the tougher stuff that provides more aggressive training stimulus. if cycling is all lonely suffering, i become more reluctant to put in the time in the saddle.

cheers!

-mistress k

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ill advised racing inc.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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Setting aside the precision issue (per other posts, replace 'slow' and 'fast' with specific HR or power zones), there are very well understood and established reasons to do long rides in Z2 (as well as long rides w/ lots of Z3 intervals, and shorter rides w/ Z4 intervals, etc) not least because you need variation in training to force the body to adapt (the root of the "make easy days easy and hard days hard" mantra), but also because long, steady Z2 workouts build blood volume, which makes the Z4 stuff more effective, and allows you to recover from the Z4 stuff more quickly.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
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JollyRogers wrote:
8-10 hours at .7IF = 392-490 TSS

One hour at FTP is 100 TSS points. One hour at 0.70% of FTP (IF of 0.7) is 70 TSS. Eight hours give you 560.
desert dude wrote:

I've got over 1000 power files and can't recall a single week where someone even if scheduled 8-10hrs at high z2 got in 560-700TSS by riding 8-10hours at high z2. When you see what they are actually doing with traffic lights, cars, dogs etc, to get >560 TSS you are going to have to do intervals.

fair enough, there's often 45 or more minutes worth of stopping time when i do a 5 hour ride (also from stop at café, etc). But it is possible to accumulate that much TSS for the moving times. Let's do a conservative estimate and say i get 350TSS on Saturday and 150 TSS on Sunday from 7 hours of moving time, i can still do 3x2 hours at Z3 to accumulate 120 points each day to push the total over 800.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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fail.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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echappist wrote:



One hour at FTP is 100 TSS points. One hour at 0.70% of FTP (IF of 0.7) is 70 TSS. Eight hours give you 560.


One hour at FTP IS 100 TSS points; one hour at 0.7IF is 49 TSS points.

While I don't live and die by TSS, people who use the term should at least know what it is and how to use it

TSS = [(duration in seconds * NP * IF)/(FTP * 3600)] *100

to reduce that equation, NP/FTP = IF so,

TSS = [(duration in seconds * FTP^2)/3600]*100

In other words, one hour at 0.7IF is just less than half the training dose of one hour at FTP.
Last edited by: JollyRogers: Jun 9, 11 15:20
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Isn't there a squared term?

TSS = IF^2 * Time (hours) * 100


Jed
http://www.RADplusSPORTS.com/news - Real-time ANT+ Display trainer software

"If you want to ride by the Force, you had better make sure that you are a real Jedi." - FastYellow (6/13/2011)
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [trijedi] [ In reply to ]
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trijedi wrote:
Isn't there a squared term?

TSS = IF^2 * Time (hours) * 100


JollyRogers wrote:
echappist wrote:



One hour at FTP is 100 TSS points. One hour at 0.70% of FTP (IF of 0.7) is 70 TSS. Eight hours give you 560.


One hour at FTP IS 100 TSS points; one hour at 0.7IF is 49 TSS points.

While I don't live and die by TSS, people who use the term should at least know what it is and how to use it

TSS = [(duration in seconds * NP * IF)/(FTP * 3600)] *100

to reduce that equation, NP/FTP = IF so,

TSS = [(duration in seconds * FTP^2)/3600]*100

In other words, one hour at 0.7IF is just less than half the training dose of one hour at FTP.


opps, i stand corrected re: the calculation. my previous FTP wattage wasn't nearly high enough for me to see the difference. With a new FTP of 280, the difference is actually becoming apparent, and i was wondering why the TSS from my 2hr Z2 ride on Tuesday was lower than my 90min high Z3 ride.
Last edited by: echappist: Jun 9, 11 15:28
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [sandtiger steve] [ In reply to ]
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waste of time? not if you have the time....

Anyone who thinks riding 30 hours a week at zone 2 is a waste hasn't done it.
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Zone 2: 56-75%

I would agree that 4hr at 70% is not a bad ride. But if we are talking 56-65%, then yes it is a waste of time. I think Zone2 (by AC) is really a bad range. From my training it seems that better ranges would be:

Recovery: 0-50% - no more than 1hr ride
A: 65-75% - Long Ride / Extra Miles (most training that isn't one of the below)
B: 80-85% - 1-1.5 Tempo Ride
C: 90-95% - FTP Intervals / Extended Climbs
D: 100-105% - Shorter 5-10min intervals
E: 120% - vo2 intervals
F: 150% - anaerobic intervals

A for long rides and when you are

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [JollyRogers] [ In reply to ]
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Do you like Dr. Phil's Apollo performance manager? Does he use some sort of 30s averaging in his work calculations? I have had no luck with TSS and was thinking of trying something new. I was thinking of using the impulse model with 'normalized work' as the input - NP * ride time. This *could* be what Apollo does but I don't remember. That way I don't have to keep entering in an arbitrary FTP that may or may not match my fitness at that point in time.

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Last edited by: msuguy512: Jun 9, 11 16:11
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Do you like Dr. Phil's Apollo performance manager? Does he use some sort of 30s averaging in his work calculations? I have had no luck with TSS and was thinking of trying something new. I was thinking of using the impulse model with 'normalized work' as the input - NP * ride time. This *could* be what Apollo does but I don't remember. That way I don't have to keep entering in an arbitrary FTP that may or may not match my fitness at that point in time.

well, there's always TRIMP, but cardiac drift is a whole nother can of worms to deal with
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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Well I would think my muscles respond to the amount of work I am doing. They don't divide that work by a factor to come up with an effort level. The more work I can do the more fit I am.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Well I would think my muscles respond to the amount of work I am doing. They don't divide that work by a factor to come up with an effort level. The more work I can do the more fit I am.

Define "fit" and "work."

Being able to ride 60 miles in z2 is "work." Being able to ride 1 hr @ FTP is also "work."

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [echappist] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
and i was wondering why the TSS from my 2hr Z2 ride on Tuesday was lower than my 90min high Z3 ride.

Physiological cost is exponential as intensity increases.

Brian Stover
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Power13 wrote:

Define "fit" and "work."

Being able to ride 60 miles in z2 is "work." Being able to ride 1 hr @ FTP is also "work."

both are work genius, try riding 60 miles in z2 every single day
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [PIGsmasher] [ In reply to ]
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PIGsmasher wrote:
Power13 wrote:


Define "fit" and "work."

Being able to ride 60 miles in z2 is "work." Being able to ride 1 hr @ FTP is also "work."


both are work genius, try riding 60 miles in z2 every single day

LOL...try working on your reading comprehension, "Einstein." That was exactly my point.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Fit - fitness, aerobic capacity
Work - F*d

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Fit - fitness, aerobic capacity
Work - F*d

Exactly....the point being that there are variables. To imply that doing 60 mile z2 work is not "work" is kinda silly,

There are differnt types of "work" and "fitness", usually dependent on goals.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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to no one in particular...

TSS does not equal training impulse
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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Well I would think my muscles respond to the amount of work I am doing. They don't divide that work by a factor to come up with an effort level. The more work I can do the more fit I am.

i think the muscles do divide the work by a factor. time.
if you run a mile in 5 minutes they will respond differently than if you ran that mile in 15 minutes. same amount of work - one mile - but different response.

'fit' is a very relative concept but it's not as simple as 'the more work i can do'. i think fit is dependent on the goal or objective. a lot of people can do more work than others, but are they more fit? not always.

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Re: "long slow rides are a waste of time" [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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msuguy512 wrote:
Do you like Dr. Phil's Apollo performance manager? Does he use some sort of 30s averaging in his work calculations?


I haven't used Race Day, but it uses a 25s exponentially weighted rolling average to calculate xPower. I believe that NP uses a 30s exponentially weighted rolling average.

I also think that Race Day and WKO+ treat stops differently when computing BikeScore/TSS.
Last edited by: JollyRogers: Jun 10, 11 8:30
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