You are assuming that race directors really care about drafting as long as their race is full.

Chad

I've often wondered the same thing as I've seen packs break up at the first sound of a motorcycle, or go right back to drafting as soon as it passes. I would think the possibility of having "unmarked" marshals might be a deterrent. I'd do it. It would be a great way to volunteer and get a training swim/ride in. I'd even do an extra loop or two (or three) on the bike course to get in with multiple waves.

That is just the start of the finger pointing. RD gets to claim that all they do is produce an event and USAT is there to enforce rules. So, RD has plausible deniability and then USAT will claim that there are far too many participants, too many miles of road to monitor and or not enough officials.

Then - they both play the "it is an individule sport" card and that each person should race their own race.

Then - we all play the "well I am MOP" card or "I didnt alter the outcome of the RACE" card.

All the while folks will play banter on ST that has them claim that they are just there "for a good time" or to "meet people"....and I guess that means that they can deny that they are infact breaking the rules.

What I have seen at races all over the country is PATHETIC and the mentality of these cheaters is even more pathetic. It would not be hard to stop if we who do follow the rules just got to yelling at the cheaters. I do often (as ChrisG can attest to at IMLP in dealing with a peloton). Some years ago at IMFL 70.3 there was a guy on the bike course with a megaphone yelling at cheaters....did nothing to change their behaviour. Add to that the special interest groups who think they are "more special" due to their cause that they are out to garner money for...who also think they dont need to follow rules....


At the end of the day the cheaters are US, or at least some of us. But, I understand that is okay if you are only at the "race" to have a good time and finish a life goal (just a shame many of these "life goals" include cheating).

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I also love the fact that the same cheaters who whine endlessly about how they aren't affecting the outcome of the race or that they're MOP are the same people who flood the bike racing threads with endless moaning and self-righteous indignation about pack fodder cyclists who are caught doping.

It's almost as paradoxical as the people against doping in cycling who revere David Millar.

Or libertarians who use the internet.

What I have seen at races all over the country is PATHETIC and the mentality of these cheaters is even more pathetic. It would not be hard to stop if we who do follow the rules just got to yelling at the cheaters.

While I totally agree with your first statement, I don't necessarily agree with your second. I have yelled at cheaters often enough and it has never particularly helped my race. I guess I should have qualified my above statement by saying that and then " ... based off the number of race I attend where there are no paid officials."

Chad

RD does not "Pay" for officials from USAT...they do cover travel and what not - but USAT "pays" them.

Still, if someone cheats at Triathlon would they also cheat a pool, darts, softball? Cheating is rampant in Tri....

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I'm with you R10C! I won't hesitate to verbally blast someone on the bike course if I feel they're drafting, blocking, etc. And if the race posts results anywhere at the end of the race, I've also gotten satisfaction at times by circling the guilty person's number and writing CITIZEN's DQ -- DRAFTING (or other infraction) and then posted my race number as the citizen/witness. I've only had one person search me out about this, but he was more contrite than anything. I've had far more tell me they were glad someone called that person out because they "saw that guy/girl draft too". Vigilante justice? Yeah, maybe, but so what? Those of us who have paid Tri Fed/USAT dues for 15-20 years have seen just how much our NGO really cares about ending cheating. Too many people? Too small of a course? Not enough officials? Then why is it being sanctioned? Oh yeah, I forgot.

I think of it as us athletes governing ourselves. Those who have played pick-up basketball know exactly what I'm talking about. Cheaters are "taken care of".

So I agree: go fast, go slow, race your guts out, or do it for fun and friendship -- I don't care. Just follow the rules or go find another sport.

The trisport series (http://www.trisportcanada.com) has done this in the past - not sure if they still do it or not. They partnered with the Provincial cycling association and brought in fairly good cyclists to "police" the bike course. They were dressed as athletes. Not sure if penalties were issued on the spot or they simply recorded #'s and issued time penalties after the fact.

Dan

Well folks, it looks like we got us a new Sheriff in town!

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Lewis

The races in Quebec are monitored by officials on bikes. Most races are multi loop out and back deals so you can't ride around on a motorcycle. They aren't undercover but they are more stealthy than a Harley.

I stopped yelling at cheaters after I got spit on and told to go "f*&k-m.self".

The number of scumbags participating in Triathlons, even at the FOP AG-Triathlete level has certainly increased.
But that is what you get with popularity (nevertheless, the Grand-Stands at the Hy-Vee Tri are empty).
Got to conclude that a certain clientele is nowadays just out there to act out (those under the thumb of their bosses or wives) or to do how they please (those who claim to do something good by "participating").

Gutter.

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

heh...last year at my race I had a guy hugging the center yellow...I was in a car and honked (I was not in one of the official Ford trucks). He spit at the car and flipped me off.

DQ, and we put on the on-site results that he was DQ and why.

Now, part of the issue here is that USAT has no system in place to track who did what, where and when...if there was some sort of system then RD's could have more muscle in holding folks to the rules and even deny entry for folks who just dont seem to get it and follow them.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

USAT pays USAT Certified Officials nothing to work a race. The RD supplies a hotel room, pays Officials for mileageto get to and from the race, and pays the Official a SMALL stipend/fee. USAT Officials are volunteers.

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Habitual line stepper.

Travel and all...yes. Other than that it is on USAT. So, you really think that Charlie Crawford does not get paid? And the "Stipend" is a "per diem" for meals and what not. None of this would be considered 1099 income as a "stipend" would be. Not that who pays for a USAT official really matters here. Fact is that YOU pay for the USAT at races that are sanctioned.

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I like the idea of "stealth" officials on the bike course. Anything to bust cheaters. However, if someone really wants to cheat they will cheat. I have been racing triathlons for 22 years and I have been a USAT Certified Official for 18 years. I have NEVER gotten any payment from USAT. All my payments for being an Official have always come from the RD. Charlie Crawford is the Commissioner of Officials for the entire country. I do not know what arrangements he has with USAT for those duties.

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Habitual line stepper.

I have to take issue with your contention that if someone "really wants to cheat they will cheat" idea.

Now, here in town I know for a fact the hockey league has rules about too many fights and you are out.

The softball league has a rule about language and sportsman ship - bad language or sportsmanship you are out for multiple years.

Vollyball league is about the same as softball.....


But alas in Tri where no one can deny the fact that cheating is rampant, and there are no ramifiactions to cheating other than a 4minute penalty - that there is no real reason to not cheat. You may recall some years past an Iron race was won (female) by a woman who got a four minute stand down, that was later considered a "break" and helped attain the win (by the other women). So, people can cheat week after week going from race to race and RD to RD course to course and never not once ever worry about the body who governs the rules and sets forth the "certified" people to enforce the rules to ever so much as say "boo"...no matter how many violations.

Seems something is missing in the system - USCF does not seem to have an issue weeding out cheats, sand baggers, and folks who just cant play nice....not that any system is perfect.

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I'm so hurt. You didn't include Ultimate. Then again the common perception is
that Ultimate players don't care because they're so high. ;)

People are people Type A tend towards triathlon and require external
validation. I believe that is scientifically known as "Cardia Syndrome".

Those of us who are Type A in other realms, but suck athletically are
able to maintain both our drive and our morals. This is known as
"Suckage Syndrome".

-Jot

Bless you for starting this fight, Chip. Let's see what we can get rolling. Seems USAT and IMNA; WTC don't want to fight the battle. How about finding a way to police it ourselves and embarrass them into doing something about it. I'm tired of Skip and Jimmy R doing nothing but giving us excuses while taking their paychecks.

See Gary, this is all so easy to do - any idiot with Excel and or Acess could create a simple relational database and get cracking.

Now, at every USAT race folks who enter have to either give $10.00 for a one day, or valid USAT number before entry to the event. If they have a USAT number it is far easier....


The RD has to send paper copies of all of the "one day" licenses to USAT with the $10.00 - on this is all of their demographic information that would make it VERY easy to create an "account" of sorts with USAT...if they do one or five "one day" licenses a year.

The folks with USAT numbers - the number is simply in order of registration and super simple to track.

So, the RD is required to submit ALL information - either USAT number or the form and $10.00 to the USAT. Now, what ever person is balancing the sheets and creating the national rankings can very easily have an extra field in this form "PENALTY"....yes or no. Then, these can simply be sorted by participant and event and added together. A flag can easily be set so that if a USAT number, or a matching demographic has X number of penalties their name is added to a database, either public or private for RD log in's.

Add to that another step and have people with X number of vilations sent to Active.com and give an RD the option to not allow folks to enter an event based on their history of violations at other events...so, by default X number of violations in the past X number of events or months and entry is declined....

Suddenly there would be some meat in the rules...

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

I think the hardest part is getting USAT or IMNA/WTC to give a shit.

While I like the line of thinking, the problem again comes back to having the penalty issued in the first place.

We need consistency in the issuance of penalties before we can start doing anything that will add meat to them. The fear of getting X number of penalties carries little weight if people aren't afraid of getting the penalties in the first place.

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Paul
AmateurEndurance.com

Heh....tell that to BigZach ;-)


Who ever the USAT guy was at Muncie some years back...that guy was an uber-douchebag.

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Disagree.

It works if the penalty is severe enough. Let's call it the Gambler's Equation.

1) Your chance of getting caught is x%.
2) The penalty for getting caught is Y.

Pretty much #1 doesn't matter if Y == death. (Think drunk driving in El Salvador).

If USAT/WTC/NAS wanted to fix drafting, make it so that the penalty was
a 5 year ban. They only catch 20% a year and you're still good. The
USAT portion would cause a LOT of problems for people (in spite of Chip's numerous
valid arguments about their value add) outside of the Mdot/70.3 crowd.

5% & 2 minutes? If you can live with yourself , then it's not even a consideration.

-Jot

The problem is that your examples are not the same as cheating in a tri. They are simply examples of bad behavior. You get a two minute penalty if you put a puck in the goal with your hand, or hook someone. A sideout or a point if you carry the ball or touch the net in volleyball. Cheating happens in the sports you mention and in every sport with punishments that are simply slaps on the wrist. About the only place where you get serious punishments for cheating (other then doping) is in academics when you are caught.