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"The Race" - Updated with Results
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This isn't the first race-off thread to appear here but it is MY first race-off thread and I promise to update with results and hopefully pictures of somebody in sorrow.

Earlier this year my brother-in-law mentioned he had been running a mile everyday and was starting to enjoy it. I told him that was great and to keep up the good work. Then sometime around the beginning of May he mentioned to my wife that he was pretty sure he could beat me in a race. I, by default, am the running benchmark in the family as the only runner before he started. Originally it was just going to be a neighborhood mile and a half or two miles to determine the runner of the family but then I got Lyme disease and was out of commission for several weeks while I took care of that little problem.

Now things have escalated. He's running 2 miles at a time and won't even ballpark me what sort of times he's running in. Also, a friendly neighborhood race has turned into a scheduled 5k throw-down on October 5th. He wants to put $100 on the line along with the pride of the loser. Honestly, I wouldn't have been worried about it if we'd raced pre-lyme but that time off and continued training for him has some doubts in my mind.

What I'm looking for is:

  • a realistic goal time for myself
  • strategy if I don't just blow him off the line
  • training ideas for good 5k speed
  • etc

Background: In high school (16 years ago) my PB mile was 5:27 and 2 mile was 11:24. I did a 2 mile TT the other day and came in at 14:17. I've been running about 4-5 days a week for the past 3 weeks only averaging about 10 miles/wk. I can commit to 4-5 days until race day (Oct 5th) and in the past have gotten up to low 20s/week.

Slowtwitch - Help me win this thing!


Last edited by: JesseR: Oct 7, 13 8:53
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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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See Hotman for some swagger.... That should lock it up for you.
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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [steelrain66] [ In reply to ]
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steelrain66 wrote:
See Hotman for some swagger.... That should lock it up for you.

It's SWAGGER!

Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.
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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm... Messing with the new guy, eh? Well, since he's the one throwing down the smack, I guess we should have fun with this (I'm normally more of an "encourager" for the new folks, as I was one not that long ago, too). I would just run with him - maybe making it sound like you're in worse shape than you are to add dramatic effect - until about the 2.5 mile mark, and then keep picking up the pace until he breaks. If he doesn't, prepare for an all-out sprint finish. Between now and then, interval work would be good.

...or you could wear a gorilla suit and get him disqualified.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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Since nobody knows you or your brother's current fitness, maybe the only thing people can suggest are strategies. Run with him for a while and gauge his condition based on his breathing and body language. If he gets raspy with his breath lift the pace a little to blow him up. Good luck!
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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [Travis R] [ In reply to ]
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I thought this was a triathlon forum. This seems like a running question.

You want to run faster. Then paractice running faster. Start getting some more mileage in 3, 4 or gasp 5 miles at a time and alternate easy runs one day and runs with faster efforts like run 3 minutes fast, 3 minutes easy jog, or 5 minutes fast, 1 minute walk.

For more serious 5k training, I'd get some books and put together a plan. Typcially a 5k runner has a solid base includign long runs up to 9-10 miles and otherwise works on various tempo and threshold workouts ot build speed. A 5 k race is definitely an endurance event... it's a really, really long sprint. Personally I think 5k's are brutal and I prepare myself for suffering worse than I do for most events. Fortunatly it's over relatively quick.

Based on your times in High School, I'll take a WAG that you need mainly to work on form and turnover.


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http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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I like this thread, because it's really two parts - the bet and the training/race.

The bet - What is his personality? He is putting down the money because 1) he has knowledge of your past performance from somewhere, and he's close to it or maybe already beating it, or 2) the money might bluff you off the attempt right now and he can claim the family runner title for a little while. So ask yourself, is he the type to ever be bluffing here? People bluff too much or not enough. It would be pretty easy if he were kind of a jerk and arrogant, then the probability is higher that it is a bluff. If he has a normal to passive personality, then he wants a showdown - the race. (Of course, you could re-bluff and make it $300+ and pick a 10K).

The training/race - I'm glad it escalated to a 5K. At that distance it takes some pacing as well as fitness. I think a big mistake is making it only a mile, particularly if the opponent is younger. You can have someone do a few 400's once a week and jog the other days, and they get a pretty good performance that might surprise a non-speed running triathlete. Beware if you accept a challenge that young punk kid crossfitter at work...

As for training, I'm just going to suggest the simplest plan you can given time amount you have. You did a 2 mile TT at 7:10/mile pace (rounded for simplicity). I'm going to use that as your race pace and basis for other paces. You've already go 3 weeks base, which should have been just easy running. Do that for another 2 weeks. Effort level should be "just going for a run", very easy with no thoughts about pace, just getting in some running.

Then (after the next 2 weeks), on one and only one day per week, add in a faster workout. Make this a threshold pace workout. Given your 7:10 5K pace from above, you should shoot for 7:40 for your threshold pace workout. Warmup 5-10 minutes, then try to keep the threshold pace 5 minutes to start, then work up to the remainder of your run (2-3 miles) You can do it all as one effort, or split it up into say 5:00 efforts with a 1:00 easy between. Again, the other days are easy jogs.

Since the point is to win this 5K race, I'd put in a little speed work. You don't want to find yourself side by side with a mile to go, not slowing down but not being able to speed up. So I'd do a workout of a 1/2 mile TT effort. On alternate weeks, substitute this in for the threshold workout. Warm up longer, probably 15-20 minutes easy. Then do 1/2 mile at nearly 100% effort (hold back the first time, it's going to hurt). This will give you all the speed and VO2 max work you need for this race given the time constraint. Plus it gives you some experience pacing an intense effort.

In the race itself, run your target pace for the first mile, keep cruising the second, and whatever you got left in the last mile. I'd ignore your opponent, unless he's right with you, then let him set the pace till the last mile. Push it at 1 mile to go, don't let it come down to a sprint where you have no idea what kind of kick he has.

Let us know how it goes. Maybe your brother in law will sign up on ST and post "Help me beat my so-called runner brother in law".
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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [mikerh] [ In reply to ]
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mikerh wrote:
I like this thread, because it's really two parts - the bet and the training/race.

The bet - What is his personality? He is putting down the money because 1) he has knowledge of your past performance from somewhere, and he's close to it or maybe already beating it, or 2) the money might bluff you off the attempt right now and he can claim the family runner title for a little while. So ask yourself, is he the type to ever be bluffing here? People bluff too much or not enough. It would be pretty easy if he were kind of a jerk and arrogant, then the probability is higher that it is a bluff. If he has a normal to passive personality, then he wants a showdown - the race. (Of course, you could re-bluff and make it $300+ and pick a 10K).
He can be pretty cocky in things he thinks he's good at. I'm pretty sure that the reason he's getting confident enough to put money on it is that I may have been distorting my true speeds and distances. I'll tell him my time and then take 15% off the distance I covered. This lead to him making the comment that he's pretty confident with my times that he can beat me.

The training/race - I'm glad it escalated to a 5K. At that distance it takes some pacing as well as fitness. I think a big mistake is making it only a mile, particularly if the opponent is younger. You can have someone do a few 400's once a week and jog the other days, and they get a pretty good performance that might surprise a non-speed running triathlete. Beware if you accept a challenge that young punk kid crossfitter at work...
I'm 32 and he'll be 25 come race time so younger but no real run experience prior to this

As for training, I'm just going to suggest the simplest plan you can given time amount you have. You did a 2 mile TT at 7:10/mile pace (rounded for simplicity). I'm going to use that as your race pace and basis for other paces. You've already go 3 weeks base, which should have been just easy running. Do that for another 2 weeks. Effort level should be "just going for a run", very easy with no thoughts about pace, just getting in some running.
So far most of my runs have been the just run for 20 min type, or last night it was just run for 30-35 and then I map it later because I like to know the distance but am more concerned about just spending some time running.

Then (after the next 2 weeks), on one and only one day per week, add in a faster workout. Make this a threshold pace workout. Given your 7:10 5K pace from above, you should shoot for 7:40 for your threshold pace workout. Warmup 5-10 minutes, then try to keep the threshold pace 5 minutes to start, then work up to the remainder of your run (2-3 miles) You can do it all as one effort, or split it up into say 5:00 efforts with a 1:00 easy between. Again, the other days are easy jogs.
I like it

Since the point is to win this 5K race, I'd put in a little speed work. You don't want to find yourself side by side with a mile to go, not slowing down but not being able to speed up. So I'd do a workout of a 1/2 mile TT effort. On alternate weeks, substitute this in for the threshold workout. Warm up longer, probably 15-20 minutes easy. Then do 1/2 mile at nearly 100% effort (hold back the first time, it's going to hurt). This will give you all the speed and VO2 max work you need for this race given the time constraint. Plus it gives you some experience pacing an intense effort.

In the race itself, run your target pace for the first mile, keep cruising the second, and whatever you got left in the last mile. I'd ignore your opponent, unless he's right with you, then let him set the pace till the last mile. Push it at 1 mile to go, don't let it come down to a sprint where you have no idea what kind of kick he has.
I was thinking the bold part would be my plan but I wouldn't mind just running away from him at the start and sitting at the finish having caught my breath when he gets in.

Let us know how it goes. Maybe your brother in law will sign up on ST and post "Help me beat my so-called runner brother in law".


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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [dgran] [ In reply to ]
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dgran wrote:
Since nobody knows you or your brother's current fitness, maybe the only thing people can suggest are strategies. Run with him for a while and gauge his condition based on his breathing and body language. If he gets raspy with his breath lift the pace a little to blow him up. Good luck!

Not too big of a sample lately to judge my current fitness.
Last hard run was 2mi in 14:17
Last run was 3.6mi in 32min just cruising, conversational pace

I like the idea of waiting until he seems to be struggling and then push the pace to blow him up.


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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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What is his athletic background?
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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [wbattaile] [ In reply to ]
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Not really any organized sport since middle school age other than volleyball (beach and indoor). More of an extreme sport kind of guy, skiing, jetskiing, snowmobile, quad, dirt bike, etc. He's 6'1 maybe 6'2 about 160lbs.


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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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UPDATE:

Brother-in-law ran 3 miles on Sunday for the first time in almost 10 years.

I am thinking I should have insisted on a race that was sooner than later. Instead I focused on giving myself time to get faster but should have planned on a race where he'd still be slow.

Here is my schedule for this week (still 7 weeks until race day):
MonAug 19Long Run
Dist: 8 Mi @9:13

WedAug 21Easy Run
Dist: 2 Mi @9:13

FriAug 23Tempo Run
Dist: 5 Mi, inc Warm; 3 Mi @ 7:44; Cool

SatAug 24Easy Run
Dist: 2 Mi @9:13

Anything I should change? I've been hitting my target paces rather easily.




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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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Do you know where the course will be? If it is say through a subdivision, then I would do nothing but run that course until I finished the race in 20 minutes.

---------------------------------------------
I taught Chuck Norris everything he knows

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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [CoreyLMay] [ In reply to ]
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CoreyLMay wrote:
Do you know where the course will be? If it is say through a subdivision, then I would do nothing but run that course until I finished the race in 20 minutes.

I know where the course is but I haven't run it yet. Every couple weeks been running a simulated race 5k to focus on pacing. Came in at 22:22 Sunday after over cooking my first mile. I'm fairly confident that sub-22 will win.


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Re: "The Race" Tips, Tricks, Etc [mikerh] [ In reply to ]
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So I finally convinced the brother-in-law to give up some of his training times. Basically told him that with 2 weeks to go neither of us was going to gain much speed.

His best 2 mile time is 15:19
His best 3 mile time is 24:01

While I know anything could happen on race day my anxiety level is starting to go down. In comparison:

My latest 5k was in 22:22 and that was a couple weeks ago. I think I've got this.

10 days until race day!


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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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So the showdown with my brother-in-law finally happened. It was a small 5k just a couple minutes from home. The course followed the local high schools X-country course which meant about 85% of the race was on the grass. Since the grass was wet and I never train on grass I was a little nervous how it might effect my time. However, I was still confident that I could win.
Chip timing was a nice touch to go with the insanely bright orange long sleeve tech tee all for $20. Actually really happy to get that tee as it will help my night runs until it gets too cold to stay out.
They called everybody down to the start 5 minutes before race time. Told BIL good luck. Two minutes before the scheduled time they had everybody press in and I made my way to the 2nd row. A couple seconds later the gun sounds and we're off. Right away I felt a little sluggish but kept with the lead pack and the BIL was right next to me. We turned off into the woods and the group lengthened out with the BIL falling behind me. Went through mile 1 in 7:14 which was upsetting since I had a goal of sub-22 but nonetheless I was ahead. About 1.5 miles in I ran past my wife and daughter and they cheered which made me smile. Even better, I heard them cheering for uncle Cody about 20 seconds later so I knew I had a cushion. Just past the 2 mile point we made a 90 degree turn and looking back I didn't see the BIL so I knew I was good. Instead I focused on making up so places. Passed a couple others in the last mile and crossed the line at 23:01. BIL crossed the line at 24:30, a personal best for him which was good.
I ended up finishing first in my age group by 2 seconds. Turns out the last guy I passed was in my age group. Not more than 10 minutes after we finished BIL said he wanted to go best 2 of 3 and the next one needs to be a road race.

So the saga continues...


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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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JesseR wrote:
So the showdown with my brother-in-law finally happened. It was a small 5k just a couple minutes from home. The course followed the local high schools X-country course which meant about 85% of the race was on the grass. Since the grass was wet and I never train on grass I was a little nervous how it might effect my time. However, I was still confident that I could win.
Chip timing was a nice touch to go with the insanely bright orange long sleeve tech tee all for $20. Actually really happy to get that tee as it will help my night runs until it gets too cold to stay out.
They called everybody down to the start 5 minutes before race time. Told BIL good luck. Two minutes before the scheduled time they had everybody press in and I made my way to the 2nd row. A couple seconds later the gun sounds and we're off. Right away I felt a little sluggish but kept with the lead pack and the BIL was right next to me. We turned off into the woods and the group lengthened out with the BIL falling behind me. Went through mile 1 in 7:14 which was upsetting since I had a goal of sub-22 but nonetheless I was ahead. About 1.5 miles in I ran past my wife and daughter and they cheered which made me smile. Even better, I heard them cheering for uncle Cody about 20 seconds later so I knew I had a cushion. Just past the 2 mile point we made a 90 degree turn and looking back I didn't see the BIL so I knew I was good. Instead I focused on making up so places. Passed a couple others in the last mile and crossed the line at 23:01. BIL crossed the line at 24:30, a personal best for him which was good.
I ended up finishing first in my age group by 2 seconds. Turns out the last guy I passed was in my age group. Not more than 10 minutes after we finished BIL said he wanted to go best 2 of 3 and the next one needs to be a road race.

So the saga continues...

Cool story... nice to have some friendly competition... makes you both better.
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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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Cool story, and congrats on the win.

I wish my BIL would've stuck with running. We started at the same time thanks to my sister and he was initially faster than me, but over time I put in the work and he didn't so now we're not even close (I could probably win a 5K by close to 10 minutes). I'm kind of bummed since he gave me the early motivation to try harder, but not everyone has the desire to stick with it. He's got his hobbies and running just isn't one of them.

Keep us posted on your next races! My money's on you, but if he stays with it I bet he can make a race out of it before too long.
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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [Nick C] [ In reply to ]
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Nick C wrote:
Cool story, and congrats on the win.

I wish my BIL would've stuck with running. We started at the same time thanks to my sister and he was initially faster than me, but over time I put in the work and he didn't so now we're not even close (I could probably win a 5K by close to 10 minutes). I'm kind of bummed since he gave me the early motivation to try harder, but not everyone has the desire to stick with it. He's got his hobbies and running just isn't one of them.

Keep us posted on your next races! My money's on you, but if he stays with it I bet he can make a race out of it before too long.

I was really glad when he said he wants to go best 2 out of 3. I was worried he would stop running (just started this spring) if he lost but setting a PR helped his enthusiasm. Also he's starting to realize that your longest run should be more than 3 miles. I definitely think he could make for some close races. He's seven years younger with no running history so he should see solid improvements if he keeps it up.


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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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You need to sandbag and lose the next race after lying about work commitments, injuries or other excuses why you haven't been able to train, then up the ante for the showdown to the 10km for $300
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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:

You need to sandbag and lose the next race after lying about work commitments, injuries or other excuses why you haven't been able to train, then up the ante for the showdown to the 10km for $300

ooooh. cut throat. i like it.

http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Please do this!

Kay Serrar wrote:

You need to sandbag and lose the next race after lying about work commitments, injuries or other excuses why you haven't been able to train, then up the ante for the showdown to the 10km for $300
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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:

You need to sandbag and lose the next race after lying about work commitments, injuries or other excuses why you haven't been able to train, then up the ante for the showdown to the 10km for $300

Now that is an idea I can get behind. Do I lose the next one by a lot or keep it close and have him get me at the line?


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Re: "The Race" - Updated with Results [JesseR] [ In reply to ]
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it doesn't have to really close as long as you're convincing about why he's made improvements on you and he needs to think he can beat you again. you should start off being nonchalant that you won't need to train much to beat him again, and then in a few weeks mention you've hardly been able to train at all. gradually go from cocky to more worried ahead of race #2, and then lose it and set up race #3. Have your wife play along, confiding in his wife that you're secretly worried towwards race #2. tell her you'll take her to dinner with the $300!
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