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"Regular" people KQing?
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Hi,

I am fairly new the sport of triathlon. I am pretty amazed by the focus on Kona but I also understand it. It seems like qualifying times are around 9:30-10 hours for a 140.6 - and it probably could become 9:15-9:30 over the next couple of years as there are more and more athletes that want to qualify and slots per qualifying race gets fewer and fewer as WTC is adding more races to the calendar. Anyway, this is pure guesswork. My first question is the folllowing: What are the characteristics of athletes qualifying for Kona?

I would assume there are 4 groups
1. People that has fairly good but not off the chart genetics and without a competitive background in either of the 3 disciplines. But they put in consistent +15 hour high quality training weeks in, maybe for several years. Lead time to KQ is +4 years of consistent training and racing
2. People who has off-the-chart genetics but without a competitive background in S, B or R. They need a few races to learn how to race and also train to build a IM base. Lead time to qualificaiton around 1.5-2 years from starting to train for IMs
3. People with a competitive background in one of the 3 disciplines. Need to build base but they are pretty fast already, they have race experience and in decent shape so they can qualify in first attempt. Lead time to qualification ~1 year
4. People who wins the lottery or buy a slot (will discard this group in the following)

I would assume most people at Kona is in group 2 and 3 as a lot of people like do not have the will to dedicate several years to IM training.

2nd question is: Any view on how many people that belong to group 1 and does not qualify despite putting in 3-4 years of consitent training? In other words, what is the success rate of people doing a whole-hearted attempt to KQ without having either off the chart genetics or a competitive back-ground?
Last edited by: andreasjs: Sep 6, 11 6:43
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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since youve already written it off to either genetics or luck you might want to take up needlepoint..

and who says it only takes 3 to 4 years?
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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My wife just KQd at Louisville in the 35-39 AG. I guess she fits into group 1. She has no competitive background in any of the 3 (or other) sports. Her genetics aren't off the chart. Her first full iron was in 2006. She has done 9 or 10 since then. She puts in 10-15 hours per week pretty much year-round. She has a full time job and is in every other way a "regular" person, but she has a lot of determination and won't quit.
Last edited by: sxevegan: Sep 6, 11 6:49
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [butch] [ In reply to ]
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butch wrote:
and who says it only takes 3 to 4 years?

It was my assumption, I might be wrong. What is the right numer in your view, on average?
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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Look for the how long did it take you to Kona qualify post from a year or so back.

Most of the respondents had done it within 3 years, only 1 or two who had stayed with it and pushed through in their 10th or 11th year.

look it up.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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I was category 3 and KQed in my first try, but most of my friends who have gone were category 1. Lead time of about 4 years for them (or more in certain cases) seems about right.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [butch] [ In reply to ]
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KQ is obviously going to take either

1. a LOT of great genes and some hard work

2. some great genes and a LOT of hard work

lots of people are going to have genetics that may make it impossible to get there, specifically I am thinking of people who get injured whenever they run a lot. also people way to the left of the cardio vascular bell curve. if you hang out with regular folk, there are many of them who run 20 miles a week and can't crack 11 minute miles.

I think though, that the average joe, can get it done, but it will be very, very hard.

KQers are definitely studs in one way or another.


butch wrote:
since youve already written it off to either genetics or luck you might want to take up needlepoint..

and who says it only takes 3 to 4 years?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in group 1, kind of. I'm a regular guy. No great genetics, just hard work. Ran in high school, but was not really very good. I've been racing tri's for 5 years, and I qualified at my first "attempt" to qualify.

I have a bunch of triathlete friends. The difference I see is one thing. HARD WORK. I train to improve and compete. So many others don't train hard or hard enough. Yes, I train 12-15 hours a week. Some as little as 10 hours, some as high as 17 hours, but 14 is usually the number I end up with. I don't obsess with hours/week but I do obsess about my quality sessions.

That's about it.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [applenutt] [ In reply to ]
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You didn't swim growing up? You're definitely a FOP 'open' swimmer in SCTS these days.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]
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Hey thanks. No swimming background. My first 2 years of tris, I was fortunate to swim with a former swim coach. He taught me the ropes on stroke and workouts. Most important thing he taught me was almost every workout was tough. He made me suffer 3 days a week for 2 years straight. This is what made me a decent swimmer. I'm quickly humbled whenever I swim next to the Spartaquatics swim team.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [applenutt] [ In reply to ]
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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damn. now youre making me work...

im not sure there is a right number of years. i think theres a lot of factors to doing it not just genetics or time. most people seem to agree hard work is the number one factor. remember were talking about being a good age grouper not a world champion. a hard working person who does a lot of the little things right can get there... i think its way too easy of a cop out to blame genetics. dont forget race execution, balancing lifestyle, managing stress on a daily basis that allows you to train effectively, getting enough sleep, eating well on a daily basis, the list goes on.

i never qualified but was right on the bubble several times. i missed it by 15 seconds at LP one year, one place at eagleman, two places at IMF....so ive been close but no cigar. personally i can identify several reasons for not making it each time. you sort of need all the pieces of the puzzle to come together. im not ignorant either though, ive seen a few people who qualfiy every single time they race. ive also seen one or two people who never have bad races either but thats a rarity. the folks whove ive known who consistently qualify manage all of the things i listed above pretty well.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
KQ is obviously going to take either

1. a LOT of great genes and some hard work

2. some great genes and a LOT of hard work

lots of people are going to have genetics that may make it impossible to get there, specifically I am thinking of people who get injured whenever they run a lot. also people way to the left of the cardio vascular bell curve. if you hang out with regular folk, there are many of them who run 20 miles a week and can't crack 11 minute miles.

I think though, that the average joe, can get it done, but it will be very, very hard.

KQers are definitely studs in one way or another.

I think if you're going to talk about 'genetics' you have to define exactly what this means. Obviously it's not having blue eyes vs. brown eyes... but what IS it? Is there an 'IM gene' that makes one able to sustain moderate exercise without GI issues for ~10 hours? Unlikely. Is there a gene which confers exceptional vo2max? More likely, but does this mean much for IM? Maybe not.

Until you define exactly what you mean (or even generally what you mean!) by 'great genetics', I don't think you can inject it into the conversation of 'what does it take to KQ'.

You can't be fat. You can't be sick all the time and unable to train. You can't (typically) have chronic GI problems such as Chron's or Colitis although this has been proven wrong in specific cases. But other than that? If you can train intelligently and consistently then your path from point X to point Y is not going to be inherently more difficult than anyone else's.

If you want to say that it is, then we have to start talking about specifics. But I haven't seen any of those specifics raised yet.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [superphil] [ In reply to ]
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The only "genes" one needs are the ones that allow a person to dedicate 15 hours of consistently smart training. Most just don't have the ability to make other life sacrifices to put in the work, week in and week out, month after month.

"One Line Robert"
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [superphil] [ In reply to ]
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modern science doesn't even know the full totality of genetics that defines how tall you get, let alone the full totality of genetics that would define your ironman potential.

yet there are clearly MANY things beyond your control which can make it impossible to KQ, from frailty, to digestion, to aerobic capacity or some unfortunate combination of those things.

you won't ever know if you have the genetics or not until you spend years training, a lot though. so it is perhaps useless to worry about.

train like you know you can make it, work hard to overcome your shortcomings see if you do.

at the same time it is unfair to declare that anyone who doesn't do it just didn't try hard enough. lots of people out there with destroyed knees and such that tried plenty hard and just can't handle the load.





superphil wrote:

If you want to say that it is, then we have to start talking about specifics. But I haven't seen any of those specifics raised yet.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
modern science doesn't even know the full totality of genetics that defines how tall you get, let alone the full totality of genetics that would define your ironman potential.

I agree absolutely! That's why it's insane to say 'its genetics' when even the best experts we have can't actually confirm this or rule it out.

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yet there are clearly MANY things beyond your control which can make it impossible to KQ, from frailty, to digestion, to aerobic capacity or some unfortunate combination of those things.

you won't ever know if you have the genetics or not until you spend years training, a lot though. so it is perhaps useless to worry about.

train like you know you can make it, work hard to overcome your shortcomings see if you do.

at the same time it is unfair to declare that anyone who doesn't do it just didn't try hard enough. lots of people out there with destroyed knees and such that tried plenty hard and just can't handle the load.

Sure but 'genetics' is a terribly misleading term to put in the place of 'shit happens'. If my ACL decides to go during a track session, that very well might make it impossible for me to KQ. But the reasons for an ACL snapping are either unknown or clearly not related to genetics. If I get a terrible virus that puts me out for 2 months during build phase - again, no KQ. But saying that's 'genetics' is hardly something you can back up with any evidence - it's possible that the most naturally gifted athlete on the planet could be felled by such a virus too.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [superphil] [ In reply to ]
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superphil,

I would suggest there is a difference between not knowing the full GATC sequences that limit ironman speed

and knowing that some people are clearly just not granted the kind of aerobic capacity or tendon or bone strength to get it done.

on st you can lose site of the millions of people that have to train for years to run 9 minute miles in an open 5k.

those kinds of people aren't going to KQ.

probably not many of those people even think of trying it so maybe they are not worth discussing? heh



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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2 points I guess

1 - if you're training for years and can't hit 9 min miles in an open 5k, you can't just say there's some sort of magic unknowable reason you can't do that, and call that magic unknowable reason 'genetics'. You might as well say "I can't hit 9 mins/mile in a 5k because god doesn't want me to". Makes as much sense, gives you as much useful information. Can you not get that fast because you keep getting injured? Because you can't control your weight?

There's typically going to be a major reason and then perhaps some associated minor reasons. But it will be something specific and it won't just be 'god doesn't want me to' or 'genetics'. That's my whole point. 'Genetics' is a cop-out. We need to talk specifics.

2 - You're right that the average person who doesn't train to go fast in IM triathlons is not going to be coming on slowtwitch and asking 'what does it take to KQ'. We have to keep sight of the audience in these discussions. Typically it's someone who is already very, very fit compared to the average, sedentary joe. They may have a LONG way to go to get to Kona but compared to the guy who gets most of his exercise walking to his car in the morning, they're already pretty close to 'elite'.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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Many like to go on and on about genetics. It is important - but not in the context that people normally think. The are often too hung up on the physical genetics. Yes you have to some things going your way physically, but Ironman if anything else over the course of time has proven that ordinary people can do extraordinary things!

The bigger and more important genetic component is the mental part - you have to love to train, you have to know how to train, you have to be very patient and you have to be very resilient. Doing well to really well at an event like an Ironman at the level of qualifying for Ironman Hawaii takes years and years of time. Yes, there are the odd freaks, who come-along and crush it right out of the box, and people love to bring these folks up as examples, but typically there is a back-ground story of extraordinary success doing something else at some time.

Most coaches who know what they are doing will tell you that it typically takes about 4 - 5 years of training at a moderate level to get ready to really train for success at the Ironman distance. Many don't have the mental genetics to deal with that - they want it all now, they are impatient, they are looking for quick solutions or easy ways, they are being driven by external factors and not by an internal love of training and physical activity.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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I think also depends on AG group/sex
Personally I know a few women in the 30s, one used to be VERY overweight, so maybe she was gifted but did not know til she started to train...but once she lost weight, she was totally focused and did well with no coach. I know personally 4 people that got to Kona without a coach, and I'd say 3 gifted but also focused on that, one maybe not so gifted but also that was all she wanted to do.

I think also a lot is a numbers game, what age group, gender, and what race. It seems to me lately the men's 30-even up to 50-59 is crazy fast! and times keep getting faster.

So there are a lot of factors involved---from what I've seen, yes it IS possible...but unless near elite level in the 30-39 male AG it'll be tough, the times are getting really faster there.

But don't give up!
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [wsrobert] [ In reply to ]
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wsrobert wrote:
The only "genes" one needs are the ones that allow a person to dedicate 15 hours of consistently smart training. Most just don't have the ability to make other life sacrifices to put in the work, week in and week out, month after month.

Totally disagree on this.. the vast majority of AG triathletes could train year after year after year, 15 hours a week (which is not much for IM) and are not going to qualify for Kona. Not without a really long roll down. You are suggesting that most males could break 10 hours with the right amount of training. and dedication.

Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [superphil] [ In reply to ]
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All it takes to understand what Jack is saying is to watch an average high school cross country team. These kids are all doing the same workouts. Run the same distances. Some are good, others will never run a sub 7 minute mile. If you want something quantifiable start with VO2 Max.



superphil wrote:
2 points I guess

1 - if you're training for years and can't hit 9 min miles in an open 5k, you can't just say there's some sort of magic unknowable reason you can't do that, and call that magic unknowable reason 'genetics'. You might as well say "I can't hit 9 mins/mile in a 5k because god doesn't want me to". Makes as much sense, gives you as much useful information. Can you not get that fast because you keep getting injured? Because you can't control your weight?

There's typically going to be a major reason and then perhaps some associated minor reasons. But it will be something specific and it won't just be 'god doesn't want me to' or 'genetics'. That's my whole point. 'Genetics' is a cop-out. We need to talk specifics.

2 - You're right that the average person who doesn't train to go fast in IM triathlons is not going to be coming on slowtwitch and asking 'what does it take to KQ'. We have to keep sight of the audience in these discussions. Typically it's someone who is already very, very fit compared to the average, sedentary joe. They may have a LONG way to go to get to Kona but compared to the guy who gets most of his exercise walking to his car in the morning, they're already pretty close to 'elite'.
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [andreasjs] [ In reply to ]
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Train like you're one spot, or 15 seconds, out of getting that last spot.

Sleep at night knowing that sometimes it just wasn't meant to be. And that Kona doesn't define you as an athlete.

Yes, I said sleep. If you put in the time & training, please get some sleep, too.




"Outwork your talent." Kevin McHale
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [boilerup] [ In reply to ]
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boilerup wrote:
wsrobert wrote:
The only "genes" one needs are the ones that allow a person to dedicate 15 hours of consistently smart training. Most just don't have the ability to make other life sacrifices to put in the work, week in and week out, month after month.


Totally disagree on this.. the vast majority of AG triathletes could train year after year after year, 15 hours a week (which is not much for IM) and are not going to qualify for Kona. Not without a really long roll down. You are suggesting that most males could break 10 hours with the right amount of training. and dedication.


Hmm...you can do a 5 hour bike split on 210-230 watts. This is only a ~290-300 FTP. A couple years of riding 8 hours a week could get most people there. That leaves you 7 hours a week to be a decent swimmer and runner.

"year after year" of 15 hours/wk WITHOUT a Kona slot would be more likely training wrong vs. genetically disadvantaged.

-Physiojoe

-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels
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Re: "Regular" people KQing? [boilerup] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, I am suggesting that. The vast majority of triathletes think 6-8 hours of "workouts" a week is significant. Those certainly arent your KQ'ers. Albeit, there might be some KQ'ers with the right amount of base and background doing it on much less than what might be deemed optimal for most.

I do not believe that the majority of AG'ers truly make the sacrifices needed and use all of their available resources (qualified coach) on a consistent basis. Most AG'ers have full time jobs, families and time constraints caused by the job and families. It's easy to pass on a workout when your son has a soccer game or when you've worked 60 hours that week. And I don't blame you.

It takes consistent, quality training and focus every day to get there but I do believe that most are capable with the right direction and focus.

"One Line Robert"
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