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"Performance Aids"
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There was a post on caffiene pills today. I found it surprising that people are willing and find it fair to spend upwards of $5000 dollars on a bike and wheels to make themselves go faster, yet are opposed to caffiene and such stimulants. HOW IS IT ANY DIFFERENT? you are buying a better performance. If you are given something that someone else does not have, that gives you an unfair advantage, be it caffiene or a p3.

Im not preaching against performance enhancers. I have taken caffiene before, even dabbled with ephedrine, nor am i against aero frames, all im trying to say is that it is slighty hipocritical to call someone a cheater for using something that gives them an advantage, when you are doing the exact same thing with an expensive bike.

So maybe i cant afford a $4000 bike, i can afford a bottle of caffiene pills. How is that any different?

If you want to make it completely fair, ban everything that gives an advantage and make it about the athlete. Its not going to happen, i dont think it should be that way.

But i dont think people should preach against "cheating", especially when it is hardly cheating at all. (i am against roids, epo, and that kind of stuff though)

just my thoughts, they probably dont make sense, i just finished a long week of exams and am slightly burned out.



-kevin




"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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OK, I'll take the bait. It would be interesting (note I am not advocating this just saying it would be interesting) if there were a $1k limit on bikes and equipment - that's $1k total on everything you've got at the race, bike, wheels, wetsuit. No performance enhancing chemicals of any kind. About the only thing to allow are carbohydrate and electrolyte drinks and whatever kind of food you want.

Obviously this woul be completely un-enforceable but it would bring us closer to raw athlete vs. athlete.
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty sure a $4000 frame won't cause dehydration or GI "issues".
Last edited by: Joe_H: Feb 14, 03 8:27
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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Hi,

Apples...Please meet Oranges...

It has nothing to do with money.

http://wattieink.com/elite-team/
Raising funds to help wounded veterans and racing RAAM 2013 with http://team4mil.org/
"If you are gonna charge... CHARGE HARD!"
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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Kevin, It may or may not be cheating, but it damn sure is STUPID! I'll enjoy passing you hunched over cramped legs or laid out in the med tent. A cup of joe in the morning is one thing....caffeine or "stack" pills have no place in endurance sports.
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Re: "Performance Aids" [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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Yes it is apples and oranges...but this is an interesting concept.

If an RD out there patents this idea, I get some of the profits, ok?-

Create a NASCAR style race series...there would be strict guidelines as to equipment, food, etc etc, to level the field as much as possible. Everyone who competes must have same wheels and frame/fork, but handlebars, saddles, and run shoes could be individualized. Everyone must have the same wetsuit. This would be a spin-off of the Euro Formula-1 series, with an American twist...just no short course stuff---every distance, NO DRAFTING.

There's the idea, no someone make it happen!

And, above all else, it doesn't matter what you take or the equipment you ride, it's the junk-you've-got-in-da-trunk...As my friends frame builder used to tell him when he asked how to spin faster..."you just spin faster!"

http://www.reathcon.com
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Re: "Performance Aids" [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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past folks on crumpled legs huh. i know 3 people who have used both caffine and ma hung to qualify for Hawaii. this goes on a lot more with age groupers than most people realize.
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Kevin,

I think if we give up delineating between the inside and the outside of our bodies - if we cannot make the distinction between human and non-human - then we may as well give up on making any distinctions at all.

Best,


TonyG

What is Enoch Root?
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for keeping this one alive Kevin.

As far as I am concerned, (and I think every governing body in the wonderful world of sports would agree) it's not "cheating" if there are no rules against it. On yesterday's string, someone gave an example of the quantity of caffeine that constitutes cheating. Why do some people think it's cheating to take any amount, as Puskas suggests? I'm not saying that it is only cheating if you get caught, I am saying it's only cheating if you break the written rules, which is not what I was suggesting when I started this debate the other day.

I agree with Puskas that it has nothing to do with money. It is about choices...what to ride, what to eat, how much to train, coach or no coach. The decision to eat caffeine or advil, within the rules, is no different than riding (notice I did not say buying) the bike that is going to allow you to have your best performance.

TriBryGuy's posting is idiotic. As we read the other day, plenty of top guys use it (also see Redneck's posting). I don't see anyone running by Cam Brown hunched over in the med tent and you won't see me in the med tent either because I will have completely figured it out well before race day.

I want to have my best possible race within the rules. A few caffeine pills falls well within the rules. If it works in training, it is going to be part of racing.
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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I know many here have advised agaist caffenie pills in IM's, but how about for oly's, or sprints?
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Re: "Performance Aids" [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree. I've done two IM events on caffeine and you would have to work much harder than your stated IM PB to pass me "hunched over cramped legs or laid out in the med tent". I think it is a risk that can happen, but it doesn't always.

I think you are better arguing against caffeine from a moral standpoint. There are some supplements/EAs that appear very dangerous and I would never touch (epo, steroids, etc.), and these can be argued against from a moral and or safety standpoint.

I myself may choose not to use caffeine in the future for my own morals. A performance without caffeine would likely feel like a "clean" win. In the end it is a personal decision and I think safety and your personal conscience should be a priority.
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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While I think there are several good arguments that have been put forward for using caffine pills.. or atleast the analogies of "buying speed" and taking a caffine pill, the only thing that I can say against them is that if I was to race on caffine pills, and win, I would definatly not feel morally correct for having done so. I would much rather spend the extra money to get a "fast" bike, or wheels or whatever, than pop any pills designed to do the same thing. Or, even better, I could just train that much more, and accomplish the same thing.

David
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Re: "Performance Aids" [David Clinkard] [ In reply to ]
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I gave up caffeine two years ago for a simple reason: It's bad for you. I train because I enjoy it and because I like to feel strong and fast. I also like the mental clarity I get when I am eating, training, and resting right. I didn't see the point in affecting that balance with caffeine.

Bottom line: Why put that shit into your body?

-MK
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Re: "Performance Aids" [tom] [ In reply to ]
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sounds like communism to me
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Re: "Performance Aids" [davidd] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:

As far as I am concerned, (and I think every governing body in the wonderful world of sports would agree) it's not "cheating" if there are no rules against it


Maybe every governing body EXCEPT the International Olympic Committee (IOC) because they do have rules against it. According to the IOC, caffeine IS a controlled/banned substance at a certain level. I don't recall what that level is, but if an athlete reaches this cut-off level of caffeine, then according to the IOC, he/she is cheating. It would take something like 8 cups of coffee in an hour to get there, but pills would obviosly make reaching this level easy.

Its the same with EPO and hematocrit levels. Athletes can use just enough EPO to raise their hematocrit, yet keep it under the cut-off. If they are using EPO but are under the hematocrit cut-off, are they cheating?

For the record, I have coffee before a race. 1 cup, VERY strong.
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Oggie] [ In reply to ]
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Oggie-

Why are you using part of my quote to misrepresent the point I am making? We all know caffeine is against the rules in huge (you gave an example) quantities. I talked about 1 pill per hour, subject to testing. That gets me to 9 pills during an IM assuming I stash one in my wetsuit for the last 100 meters. I think the IOC will leave me alone. And, making any comparison to EPO is ridiculous. Caffeine is OFFERED on course. Is EPO?

I had 2 caffeine pills before my bike race yesterday, no coffee. A guy on my team had a huge coffee and 2 Red Bulls. Who is more guilty? Oh yeah, I also had a breathe right strip on. Does that change the equation?
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Re: "Performance Aids" [davidd] [ In reply to ]
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David,

I apologize. I did not intend to misrepresent you or even counter your point. I think I failed to state my point clearly. I think the comparison to EPO is valid. They both enhance performance and are both illegal substances at a certain level. Just because caffeine is common and easily attainable, do we then give it different consideration? I simply wanted to pose this question. I personally like the effects of caffeine, but would never touch EPO, so I do give them different consideration. I think you would agree with me on that. I just wondered what someone with a more hardline opinion against caffeine would think.
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Re: "Performance Aids" [Kevin_Queens] [ In reply to ]
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I have recently converted to the triathlon world after spending 10+ years competing in the rowing world...so forgive some of my ignorance in your realm. I'd like to address something that Kevin_Queens said "all im trying to say is that it is slighty hipocritical to call someone a cheater for using something that gives them an advantage, when you are doing the exact same thing with an expensive bike.
...If you want to make it completely fair, ban everything that gives an advantage and make it about the athlete. Its not going to happen, i dont think it should be that way. "

I think this is a very interesting point when it comes to equipment. In the rowing community there are minimum weight standards that boats must meet at the national/world/olympic levels. If your boat comes in under weight, you have to carry weight with you to make up the difference. Unfortunately this can hinder advancements in designs which could save time over the course of a race. However, the governing body has these rules to help ensure a level playing field where the winner of the race is determined more by the athlete than the equipment. A stance I completely agree with. I'd be interested to know if there is ever any talk of that in the tri/bike world.

As for how it pertains to caffeine and other substances...I have to agree with Kevin_Queens here as well, with one addendum. If you are taking caffeine or something else that is legal up to a certain point, that is fine. However, I have a real problem with people who use new drugs that haven't made the banned substance list, but are most definitely enhancing their performance to a higher level. If memory serves, there were a couple of nordic skiers who fell under this category in the last olympics. I for one don't mind a little caffeine...but coffee is too much. I made the mistake of drinking a cup before a very cold race and felt really jittery at the starting line. I guess the difference is, that the IOC doesn't see Caffeine (up to a certain point) to be that much of a performance enhancer that it gives someone an unfair advantage.
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Re: "Performance Aids" [redneck] [ In reply to ]
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Well, redneck, I've stood in a combat zone with people firing at me and survived. That doesn't make it a healthy proposition. A guy passed me on the highway this morning who had to be doing 95mph. He nearly wrecked trying to make his offramp but got lucky. Sure, plenty of people have dodged the bullet with caffeine and stacks. That doesn't make it a good idea.
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