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"Medical" people can be idiots - or am I?
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Well, I know I am.



But, as some of you know my lovely girlfriend is a PT. She has a friend who was training for Chicago marathon and bailed doe to stress fractures, foot issues and on and on and on. I have tried time and time again to get her to go to a local running store (her is the friend) and get a stride analysis and new shoes.



Problem one “I have always run in this shoe” – that has to me proven to not be the right shoe – duh.



Problem two – “We are all PT’s we can do a stride analysis better than a shoe sales person.” This I have issue with as well – sure they can do a stride analysis, BUT do they know what shoe to suggest? NO. They can give a diagnosis all day long, but how can they have no idea what is at the drug store per se.





Problem three – runner girl gets better, puts on her OLD shoes and hits the streets…would you not think that a PT would know better?





Am I off base or would a person who is VERY up to speed on many brands, styles, types and models of shoes (all in stock mind you) a person who has training on how to correct an issue runs many marathons (2:30ish) be better to get a stride analysis from? That way he can say – yes you pronate, try THIS shoe.



Thoughts?

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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A shoe "expert" at the Bill Rodger's Running Center in Boston gave me a certain shoe and said it would work well, I've had two sfx wearing those shoes. May not be totally related to the shoes, but pronation and cuishioning definitely have played some role. I think I'd ask several people in the shoe store for their opinions...

Proud member of Fishtwitch and the ST Grammar Police
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with Tigerchik - get a few opinions if you don't have a 'Demerly' like shoe person around.

I started running on Asics, I forget the model. I didn't have any real problems but after a year or so of running decided to try New Balance 1221's. Love the NB's. I still have about 3 old Asics that I use to cut the grass in or just to slip on for running errands and everytime I wear the Asics my feet hurt and I wonder how I ever ran in them.
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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You just want confirmation that you are right :)

Three thoughts:

1) Yes, PT's know alot ... but maybe not everything. Just like therapists needs therapists of their own, doctors need doctors to look over THEM, coaches need coaches, perhaps PT's should get an outside eye from another professional.

2) Shoe selection is a completely different animal than gait analysis. Someone might know his/her own gait (or understand a client's), but a shoe salesperson knows the nuances of manufacturers' offers as well as nuances of new shoe models... case in point, a pronation shoe in Asics may yield different results in a NB shoe.

3) The PT friend should know better than to run in old shoes after foot issues and stress fractures! The mere fact that you used the 'plural' form ("foot issues") tells me that she hasn't 'cured' her own foot or gait problems yet.

It may be true that a shoe salesman may not be not a medically-trained person, but a good one is trained in one thing: gait WITH shoes.

Lauren



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Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
Last edited by: Fitnesscoach: Jan 30, 06 15:22
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you very much...that is what I was thinking dead on. Another reason I get my running shoes from an excelent small running store (Runners Image). For a long time the "big name" stores would sell me the most costly shoes they had - and I was dumb enough to buy them. Turns out the shoe I love and works great for me I pay about $60.00 a pair for - I would have never tried this with out some great advice from someone who watched me run - "read" the wear on the sole of my shoes - and made a great suggestion.

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I get your point and I'm nut just trying to be a jerk, but ... your subject line says, ""Medical" people." That's a very broad brush.

In a previous life when I was in advertising, I had a client who was a doctor. He'd sit in meetings and sweat and jitter. He was so junked up on drugs it was pathetic. And he chain-smoked. Thank goodness he wasn't typical.

I thank God all the time for the incredible medical people I've encountered who have saved my life a time or two. I could never do what they do. I can't imagine how anyone can. But I thank God that he puts people on this earth who have a heart for that kind of work. Where would we be without them? I'd be worm food.

But your girlfriend's friend sounds rather touched.

Bob C.
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I had a running shoe "expert" once tell me that the shoes I was trying on "looked good on me" so be wary of their expertise.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
Last edited by: Casey: Jan 30, 06 15:39
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I finally stopped going to the local Sports Authority when I found a severe blood blister with my old shoes. My boyfriend, who was fit by his local store (Second Sole in the Cleveland area), said to go find a local running store to watch my gait and feet.

Immediately, I took my old shoes to Fleet Feet in Columbia, MD. The salesperson asked me many questions and watched me walk and run and he looked at my old shoes. They had a treadmill in the store. He measured me and even said that my feet were 1/2-size different from one another.

Then he asked me what type of "feel" do I want - do I like a 'padded, floaty feel' or do I want a stiff, road feel? I said I didn't really know, so he let me try several. I wound up with an Asics Gel Nimbus, (a floaty feel) which I baby.

The shoes are great. That salesperson was great. They were really nice, and when I went in a couple of weeks later for a fuel belt, they recognized me and said hello, how were my shoes? What nice service.

Lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah - if one of the shoe salesmen says to your friend, (in their best Billy Crystal voice) 'You look marvelous' - run.
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I've had a few(like maybe three) patients come into my chiro office and ask for bike recommendations or for a bike fit. Normally people visit people chiros for musculo-skeletal issues, not for bike stuff.

But to tell the truth, I learned nothing at all about bicycles at at chiropractic college. Learned that on my own but my chiro background was very helpful in understanding this.

You'd think a PT that is a runner would know what is going on with shoes but not necessarily so. She must just be a fast runner who never took the extra time to learn about shoes. They didn't teach her much about shoes when she was studying to be a PT.
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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When I'm working at the running store, it happens all the time where a podiatrist/physical therapist/trainer sends someone in after doing a gait analysis and tells them that they have X type of foot strike and need X type of shoes. They then proceed to give them a list of shoes that were: 1, made 3-4 years ago, or 2, shoes that are completely opposite from what the runner should be getting, or 3, list of shoes so completely different from each other there is no rhyme or reason for the list.

And then of course the customer will only stick with what is specifically on the list...

Therapists need to know their shoes to reccomend them just as much as shoe guys/gals need to know a good amount about biomechanics versus just knowing shoe features. A good combination of all of the above is hard to find, and even then it's still just a guessing game. You just have to find someone who guesses well:)
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Tai] [ In reply to ]
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My point exactly. We (PT's, chiros, MD's, etc) are usually not up on the latest in equipment unless we're really into it.

Since I live in the boonies there is nobody that I can send for a bike fit. But if Paul Levine, Tom D. or somebody was around the corner I'd do a physical examination and write out findings such as this patient has neck problems with degenerative discs at C5-6, or low back problems, leg length differences etc. and send them over to them to take over. This info would then be useful to a pro bike fitter who could go from there.

I know more about bikes than I do about shoes, but when a runner has asked me for shoe advice I analyze their gait and give them a general diagnosis like "you're pronating" and then recommend this one running store about an hour away where the people there know their stuff. Last thing I'd ever try to do is tell somebody who works in the business what shoe they should give a patient.
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know about PTs, but the old saying is that doctors are the worst patients.

_________________
Dick

Take everything I say with a grain of salt. I know nothing.
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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As a PT (who works in pediatrics now, mind you), I can tell you that I would never trust myself to analyze my own gait (or swim technique, or cycling technique, etc.). I will help out friends with running gait, and swimming technique (I am a USS coach), but as far as what shoe to recommend? No Clue. Not in the job description, unless you are talking about MAFO's, braces, orthotics or walkers.

I have no choice but to be competent in gait analysis, especially working with pediatrics, and I have learned alot about running gait analysis as well through work and continuing ed. I am willing to bet that I know alot more about gait than your average shoe sales person, but that means shit when I say "how about Air Huraches, I really like them..." The sales person says "sorry bub, that was 12 years ago." I willingly have the sales rep at the store analyse my stride and make recommendations. Maybe the benefit to my experience is that I know when I am being B.S.ed, and I can ask relevant questions. It helps both of us.

So maybe you are right. Actually some of the biggest idiots I know are colleagues. I am sure if I looked hard enough, I would find some more.

"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [JM] [ In reply to ]
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I am VERY fortunate that my local running store has a great and well educated staff. I have had a hell of a time getting these three women (all PT's at the same place and runners) to understand that they can watch their gait all they want...they have no idea in hell what shoe will fix it. I guess I am an asshole for posting this on ST and I have insulted at PT's that are working today as I underestimate their education and what it is that they can do....sell shoes I guess...

----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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Actually I am far from insulted, I agree with you on your assessment of the three PT's. You can be educated all you want, sometimes that means shit. The guy who I have had work with me the most on the running form is an english teacher who coaches XC at the local HS. I have been fortunate that he as well as some others have provided me with the information I need to get faster, and remain injury free. If I was ignorant I would say "what the hell does an english teacher know about running form?" In reality, a hell of alot. Best part, he doesn't know all the big words that clutter up my life, so he speaks english to me.

Keep working on them, maybe they will come around. I apologize for all PT's for their ignorance.

"Maybe you should just run faster..." TM
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Re: "Medical" people can be idiots - or am I? [Record10Carbon] [ In reply to ]
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No you brought up some good points and I don't think anyone is insulted. It just goes to show that you often need a few viewpoints to get things right and even then everyone is going to have a bias. We have a local run coach out here who always brings their runners in for shoes accompanying them to help them pick. Sad to say but no matter what type of shoe we think the person should be in (myself or other running store staff) we also know that this coach has their own preferrences in a shoe and they are pretty much always the same regardless of the runner and his or her needs. We'll bring out shoes we think are best for them, and then of course the token shoe that we know the coach will like. No matter what we do they always end up with that same damn shoe. Power of trust I guess, they trust the coach and thus the coaches word rules.
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