Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
"I realize that 2-3 MPH is complete BS"
Quote | Reply
From Gordo's site, Acorn's review of his PC experience "I realize that 2-3 MPH is complete BS", shows what I had thought and been saying, that PC's actually do not help you build power and speed but can actually work against you in that manner. They may build economy but your speed can drop off. They may be a great tool for buiding a smooth pedal stroke but to guarantee 2-3 MPH just by using them is nuts. Coaches Gordo and Friel as well as other PC cyclists that have been using them for a while are beginning to state that they are better used as a complementary tool instead of using them exclusively. Semms as though Coggan was on to something a while back.

Here's Acorn's review, he used them exclusively for a very long period:

http://www.coachgordo.com/...config.pl?read=27327


---------------------------------------------------------

" OK, here is my background and current thoughts on PC's.

I used PC's exclusively from October of 2001 through April of 2002. This was on Frank's advice to ride them for 6-9 months exclusively to see results. I went through a very brutal adaption period. I worked myself up to a 4 hour ride at about this time last year. Eventually I was able to build up to a 7 hour ride. I did not focus on high cadence or riding in the aerobars, much of my riding was pure survival. I then hopped back on my tri bike a few weeks before Wildflower and tested at the same speed as my last two season bike splits. On race day itself, on a road bike instead of my tri bike (based on my coach's recomendation to mimic my training setup) I rode 3 or 4 minutes slower than my split the last two years. For reference, all of my splits in 2000 and 2001 were within a minute of each other so I thought I had a really good baseline prior to starting PC's. All of the rest of my bike splits in 2002 were noticeably slower than 2000 and 2001.

From this I draw the conclusion that if any cycling progress was made, it was negative.

I did, however, have a very good training day in the early spring with my best-ever Palomar climb of 78 minutes (not using powercranks but prior to Wildflower, I think I busted the clutch so I had to send them back or something.) And I had a pretty good road race the weekend before Wildflower. I do think the PC's made positive changes, particularly in my low cadence power and my overall economy. But, the problem was that throughout the 2002 season I simply could not beat any of my 2000 or 2001 bike splits.

In summary, for the winter of 99-00 I did mostly indoor spin classes in SF and spent a ton of saddle time commuting on my bike during the spring and summer. The winter of 00-01 I did tons of climbing per Gordo's advice and tried to ride Palomar every weekend I could with as much long slow mileage as possible. 99 was my first season. 00 was my best season and also my fastest bike splits. 01 was comparable on the bike but a little slower on the swim and run. 02 was faster on the swim and run but slower on the bike.

My run splits in 2002, however, did improve slightly. Roughly 10-20 seconds/mile. However, for some crazy reason, I continue to see improvements in my swimming and running even through this last season where I've had PR swim and run splits in every race except IM. My fitness is there. My bike splits are worse.

Now, like Gordo I like the product. I do not want to sell my set to anyone else even though I am not using them right now. I think they are a cool tool. But, as far as bang-for-the-buck goes, I don't consider them particularly special. But I have similar skepticism about bike frames, training plans, aero wheels, and bike fits. Doesn't stop me from spending though

I think I am a prime candidate for some kind of bike improvement. My swim and run splits put me in the top 3 of just about every race, but my bike splits are never in the top 10. I can honestly say that I gave powercranks a full, dedicated effort. I cannot honestly point to any particular identifiable gain that they have made for me. I think they helped my climbing and my running, but I have real test data, this is only gut feeling. I think I should have done more high cadence riding with them, particularly in my aerobars. I was planning to do some of that this winter, but instead I'm focused on a winter marathon and am temporarily only riding for fun. Basically I think I should mimic my race setup. But, I don't expect I'll ever go back and try to use them for 6-9 months exclusively. I just don't have the stomach for that.

The question of why not to use them full time is opportunity cost. If you ride PC's as fast, hard, and strong as you ride regular cranks then by all means leave them on. But, if you blow up at 3 hours with them on, or you dread getting on your bike because of them, or your taint feels like a ripe grapefruit from too much pressure, then maybe you should question the return on your sufferring. I sufferred so completely on them that I was often miserable to the point of screaming or crying. I did tweak my knee a tiny bit at one point. I got stranded a few times. I busted clutches, lost end caps, and even rode palomar on a very weak clutch one day where I could only pedal with one leg on the super steep stuff. None of it was what I consider fun. None of it is stuff I'd like to repeat unless I can figure out exactly how it will benefit me in terms of speed.

I am a happy powercrank owner. I realize that 2-3 MPH is complete BS. I knew that before I bought them. I like the product so much that I shelled out for a pair for my coach. I think everyone should have a set. I think everyone would if the price were 1/2 of what it is. I disagree with the marketing message just like Gordo, but since I'm not a coach I don't really give a rats arse what the marketing message is. It's not my concern. I got my cranks. I will use them how I see fit. That's the beauty of living in the free world.

I hope that helps clarify and summarize my experience and opinions about these things. They really are a neat tool. I really did feel different using them. But, bottom line is that I still suck on the bike, apparently even worse than I sucked two years ago, and well below what I think my physical limits are. I am but one data point. Perhaps I am doing something seriously wrong with my cycling. But, if so, powercranks did not fix my problem.

I would definitely be interested to see what might happen to Gordo after 6-9 months of exclusive powercranking. I have serious doubts that Frank's claims would hold true in that scenario. And I really don't think it's worth Gordo's time to spend a season proving him wrong. Because, when it comes down to it. Frank makes a product that helps. I want Frank to succeed. He has a great idea and he's taken it to reality. I fully applaud that.

If anyone bothered to read this, please realize I support both Frank and Gordo and all of their positive contributions to this sport. It's a darn cool sport and I'm happy to have the opportunity to indulge myself with training. So far I have not found the secret on cycling success. And my swim and run times are really not substantially faster than what I was doing in high school. So, the sad truth is that I don't have any good advice to give except train your kids early and often

Basically, if you have a bike with aerobars, a wetsuit, a pair of cycling shoes, a pair of running shoes, and a helmet, everything else is gravy. Tom Soderdahl finished 11th in Kona this year on a plain jane set of Spinergy X-Aero clinchers. I am pretty confident he would have done comparably well with the 32 spokers he was riding before he picked up the xaeros. Maybe he would have cracked the top 10 with Hed 3's, but maybe he would have anyway without the penalty he picked up.

Basically, if you want to spend, by all means buy anything you want. Just realize it may not make you any faster than the baseline of required equipment, a will to train, and a desire to improve. "
Quote Reply
Re: "I realize that 2-3 MPH is complete BS" [Gary in SD] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
this is one man's view, and a valuable one i had a very different experience but also think this, from the tno site in reponce to gary:

"...this dude (acorn) knows of what he speaks. the man triied them, and triied them in a sound manner which totally makes sense to me. i personally cannot relate to his suffering, as i got on them and did what i was doing before by day 3 and the immediate following weeks, including a century and two a day 3 hr rides. also - our results differ widely in that i could by week ten and before, sit and watch as my HR dropped around 12-15 BPM when i switched from regular style to PC style pedalling while speed stayed the same. and after a year of no real gain at all my run jumped 1 min per mi, also.

but that is not what i wanted to say. it is nice to read a counterpoint view from somebody who is not of the " all you need to do is workout smarter, not use these gimmicky things" school. you can work out just as smart and hard on PC's as you do without them. i think they are the bee's knee's but that does not mean i hold that training hard and motivation and old basics are any less important. i hold that you can take your very best workout plan and execution, add PC's to it, and get more from it. i just don't see why this is so heated a point - people have no problem doing exactly that with trick wheels, aero frames, and all the rest. i think it is smart to start with your pedalling and add the wheels later , but that doesn't mean i think trick wheels are gimmicky or won't help you or that if you use trick wheels you are in some way "against" the basics of good training and effort. i do not get the vitriol, period....."
Quote Reply
Re: "I realize that 2-3 MPH is for the AVERAGE triathlete.... [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ttn wrote: "i do not get the vitriol, period....."

Succinctly put, my sentiments exactly.

But, to be more wordy: Try them, if they work for you, great! If they don't, get your money back (which you did) and move on. You don't need to use them sporadically for two weeks (or less!) and then try to find a couple of examples of people that used them longer, but did not continue using PC's, in order to find some justification of your decision, because those examples are not relative to your situation. I doubt there is anyone that has used them sporadically for two weeks, then quit, that would say PC's helped them as advertised.

There's a 60 day "free trial" granted; for people that actually use them as instructed for the first 60 days and THEN decide there are not enough benefits to continue using them. It doesn't justify trying them less than two weeks, returning them, then citing a couple of people that have used them much longer, but say they don't think PC's helped them. That's called "sour grapes".

I've had them two weeks, I'm keeping mine for at least the 60 days and USING them EVERY ride, as instructed. If I don't agree they are helping me, I will send them back for a full refund. I will not try and find a couple of (apparently) rare examples of people that tried them longer and don't continue to use them to make my decision "seem" justified...the situations just aren't similar, and my decision will be because of what I find the benefits are, or are not, for ME. That's the only justification needed.

I hope you meet your TT goals this year! Sincerely, I really do!



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
Quote Reply
I am really amazed by Gary... [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
He asked 2 million questions about the PC before getting a really good deal from Frank.
Start a website, with what he is planning to do etc...
Then in no time, drops the cranks with some excuse that I can't find valid because the way he intented to use the PC was what I did for the first 3 months or so, and saw lots of improvements, and now is posting the opinion of one person as if acorn's opinion was worth way more than all the others here who posted positive comments.

Gary you tried the cranks 2 weeks. that's it. How many miles on them?

Before, you come up again with the "yes, but I am a cyclist, you guys triathletes don't understand...remember that I have been riding a bit before doing tris..."
I think I know cycling pretty well.
Quote Reply
Re: I am really amazed by Gary... [Francois] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
goatboy also had this to say on acorn's intersting experience. . . .

"While I think that there may be something to be learned from Acorn's experience, I do not see this as anything that disproves what the manufacturer claims. This is only one person's experience and the first that I have ever heard of someone using them exclusively and not getting great results.

There are several things in this tale that strike me as unique and make me ask why. I think answering why may help explain the lack of improvement.

First, After 7 months of using them exclusively Acorn still found it very painful to ride them. On the other hand, after I had used them for 7 months, the PCs felt like normal cranks and I had no problem logging 250+ miles per week.

Next, he raced on aero bars, high cadence, normal cranks. He trained in an upright position, low cadence, with PCs. Is it possible that his aero position was too agressive causing loss of power? Also, why race with a higher cadence than with which he trained? Both of these issues are things I found to play a big role when I went back to regular cranks for racing.

Finally, there must be some thing that he feels is works about them. If he did not see improved race results from them, why does he want to keep his and what does he think will change to get improved results from them.

Don't get me wrong, I respect Acorn's opinion on the subject, as he has actually taken the time to test them for himself. I am just curious why his experiences were so different than my own."



i find this very insightful. if so, it would certainly explain acorn's prolonged difficulties with getting up to speed, and his race results. i know that for me riding "PC STYLE" meant i needed to revamp my position and cadence - at least initially and several months...perhaps longer. this for me involved a new, dorky upslanting stem on my custom road bike, which i admit i was mildy resistant to. but even if not it is a point worth noting - PC's taught me things about riding which were at times counterintuitive and in opposition to the common wisdom.
Quote Reply
Re: "I realize that 2-3 MPH is complete BS" [Gary in SD] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Gary,

If you spent as much time training as you do trying to make some kind of point, you would be 2-3 MPH faster by now. You are truly beating a dead horse.

As I understand it, you had an agreement with Frank to document your training on PCs in exchange for a discount. So, in effect, Frank was paying you to ride PCs "his" way and let us all know how it worked out. However, it seems that you were not comfortable riding the PCs exclusively, so the agreement was voided. I don't really understand what your issue is. Frank was looking for someone to train on PCs a particular way. He was not looking for another "part-time" PCer. As you have been trying to point out again and again, there are plenty of those around. Why should he "pay" you to do more of the same? If you want to ride PCs part-time, pay full price for them like the rest of us and ride them any way you see fit. I am sure that if you paid for a Cervelo P3 you would not accept being shipped a P2 with documentation showing people able to ride really fast on it.

Haim

-------------------------------------------------------
"Sometimes you need to think INSIDE the box!" -- ME
"Why squirrel hate me?"
Quote Reply
Re: "I realize that 2-3 MPH is complete BS" [Haim] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
maybe I am going to regret getting dragged into the PC debacle of 2003. But this is a general i-dont-know-the-answer question. Where did this 2-3mph avg come from, where did the 1-2min/mile over 2 years come from? Is it purely speculation and theory, or was there a scientific controlled test done with 20 people; 10 who rode PC's the way the company wants you to and 10 who rode with regular cranks as a control? If there was a study done to show their effectiveness and the experimental group ended up with a 2-3mph advantage, than Gary's claim that "2-3mph is complete bs" isnt bs its been proven in a lab. Now i know that lab doesnt equal real world, but its a start.

Want: 58cm Cervelo Soloist. PM me if you have one to sell

Vintage Cervelo: A Resource
Quote Reply
A few answers to Acorn's problems [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I do not necessarily think I disproved anything. I think there is something I'm not doing right about my cycling. So far, I haven't found that magic key to success.

I keep my PC's because I like them. Maybe sometime I will go back and spend another long period of time riding them. Maybe when I improve to the point where riding them doesn't feel any different than riding normal cranks. Basically, if I find the magic key, I think PC's can help refine and improve my pedalstroke. But, I don't necessarily see them as the only way or the best way or the right way to reach that level. There are a ton of excellent cyclists out there who have never even heard of powercranks. I just want to reach the level where my bike splits match my swim and run splits. From there I will look toward becoming a competetive athlete.

Some answers to specific questions:

1. Why were they still hard to ride after 7 months? Well, I guess they just really made me work hard. I had to ride fast and I couldn't rest without taking every bump as a direct hit. I found them to add an element of pain and sufferring even after the adaption period. This may well be unique to my weight and skill levels. I have seen friends hop on a set and pedal just fine for more than a few minutes despite no prior adaption. I think there is a chance that some people pedal nice circles and others (this would be myself) have no clue what their legs are doing. I just remember a feeling of joy when I finally swapped back to regular cranks and I could stand up, coast without putting all the pressure on my taint, and ride through turns without even thinking about where my feet are. Basically, I think you can just call me a wuss on this one :-)

2. I rode PC's on a road bike because I wanted to use 700c tires for the winter and I didn't want to mess with my tri bike setup. I rode low cadence because my rides were survival oriented and low cadences were easier than high cadences with the pc's (less upstrokes means less pain for me.) I trained in the 70-85 range and I normally race in the 90-100 range. I think PC's helped my 70-85 rpm climbing power. But I don't think they did anything for my 90-100rpm flatland cruising power. Perhaps that is because I did not or wasn't able to train properly with them for that type of riding. I leave that option open and it is something I may explore in the future. But, I will say that for all the pain I felt in my time on PC's, high cadence on the flats was even more painful the few times I tried to do it. Again, chalk it up to myself being a super big baby :-)

3. As far as position goes, I'm still all over the place on that one. I actually raced most of 2002 on Kestrel 500 to try to leverage the work I had done on my road bike in the winter. But I did my wildflower trial split on the same bike KM40 with the same wheels as 2001. I've read a ton of what Dan has to say about bike fit and I'll probably be racing on the KM40 next season because I don't think I'm any slower on it. But, you could say that a 56cm KM40 for a 5'9.75" rider is way too big anyway. You could say a lot of things about my position on my bikes. The fact is that I haven't found a way to ride as well as I did in 2000 when I didn't have a clue about bike fit, trianing plans, powercranks, and I had just gotten my first set of race wheels.

I guess my real point is that for me, at the level that I'm at, buying a set of powercranks and riding them exclusively was not a convincing formula for success. When I say 2-3MPH is BS, I mean that I did not expect that kind of improvement from me. I also don't expect it from Gordo. But, from someone who rides 7+ IM bike splits and is in the 25-35 age range I could see 2-3MPH in one year as reasonable. But I don't think PC's are the only way to get there.

I will be watching Francois and reading what he has to say if/when he finally has a race that he is capable of. In the meantime, I don't really think any of his observations are all that contrary to mine when you consider the level of cycling he is at and I am not.

If I can answer any more questions about my issues, I'd be happy to. Again, I am a happy powercrank owner. I think they are a cool tool and I think they have helped me. I don't think the numbers Frank cites are valid for everyone or even valid averages, but since when has the Marketing game been about scientific truths? If it were, would any product sell?
Quote Reply
Re: A few answers to Acorn's problems [Acorn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just a few more tidbits.

I am not 100% sure but I believe I was riding 200+ per week on PC's in early spring of 2002. It was not what I would consider low volume by any means.

I know that I rode them exclusively because my tri bike was repainted that winter. I didn't build it up until two weeks pre Wildflower when I did my test ride. I did ride the tandem on a couple of occasions (palm springs and solvang) so if you want to say not 100% exclusive then that's OK. I think I putzed around on my fixed gear a little bit too, but not much. I honestly did the majority of both long and short rides on my powercrank bike. It was my primary training bike. I sufferred. It hurt. I remember that part.

As far as running goes, I did feel that I had a stronger kick with my new hip flexors after PC training. I'm not sure if I still have that or if I've lost some of it. My run splits have made steady trickle-type progress over the last 16 months though. And for the last 12 we've owned a dog who likes to pull on the leash for his 6 mile morning run. So, it's hard to say exactly why I am running faster. It would be interesting to do a 3200 time trial sometime and see if I am faster than I was in high school. I'm not convinced that I am, but I don't think I'm any slower either.

In the near term, I would seriously consider setting up one of my bikes for commuting purposes and putting the PC's on that bike. I don't like pack riding with PC's, I feel that I'm just too dangerous. And I don't like 4+ hour rides with them either, I just think it destroys my legs too much and forces me to ride harder than I should be riding for that distance at this point in the season. But I could definitely see commuting on them. I think you do need routine use to get the benefits. But, I don't necessarily think that all of us less-than-stellar cyclists can handle the jump to exclusive powercrank use as smoothly as the cycling giants can. And I am not necessarily convinced that exclusive powercranking yeilds better results than traditional training. It may on a case-by-case basis, but it also may not on a case-by-case basis.

Again, I have yet to find a real key to my personal success, so I'm hesitant to laud the benefits of any one plan or tool over another.
Quote Reply
Thanks Acorn [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for answering those questions. I guess the thing that still puzzles me most is how come you never really completely adapted to them. I know you could ride them but I would not consider the adaptation complete until the PCs don't feel any harder than normal cranks. I am sure we will never fully know the reason but I think it would be nice to the answer.

Keep at the hard work and I am sure you will find the right combination for your success. After all, hard work is really the biggest key.
Quote Reply
Post deleted by Pooks [ In reply to ]
puzzling [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Trust me, Goatboy, nothing puzzles me more than my experiences on a bicycle over the last few years.

Especially given the unintentional progress I've made in the pool and with my running. I say unintentional because while I have worked hard there, I haven't been focused on making gains. They have just come naturally. On the bike, I just seem to get slower no matter what type of approach I take. I would have expected the opposite, that cumulative training would lead to small but visible gains on the bike.

Next season I'll do some B races with my powertap to get some kind of feedback on how my race day power modulates. Perhaps I go out hard and blow up. Or perhaps I have good power the whole way through and my position slows me down. I suspect it is mostly the former and I expect to see some serious drops in power in my half IM races starting at about 60 minutes into the bike. I am very interested in my 40K power as well. I do notice my HR usually drops as well after about an hour of hard work. Perhaps I am simply king wuss on the bike. Or maybe I pedal in squares. I simply don't know what the exact problem is. I really haven't felt strong on my bike for more than a handful of days.

Anyway, when you consider the possibility that other potential powercrank users are also human and may not have extensive cycling experience, I think my experiences may not be as much of an exception as some might suggest. At least I have to believe that some would find difficulty riding PC's even after 6 months of exclusive use. And I can't help but admire those who can do full training on them, especially those like Francois who take to them overnight. We are all different and our challenges come in different forms.

In the short term, I'm just kind of taking a break from cycling, focusing on what I do well, and hammering out a couple of PR's while I have the fitness to set them. This season will be an off season for me, no IM, so I can focus 100% on all of my races. I hope to have some kind of plan for 2004 formulated by the end of the season, and I hope that the plan will make the gains I'd like to see. But, I just want to point out that no amount of money is guaranteed to make you faster, even if you put in the hard work. Coaching, bike fit, powercranks, race wheels, aero frames, are all there to help but they make no guarantees about your success.
Quote Reply
Re: puzzling [Acorn] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I entirely agree on this Acorn (actually the kind of negative post came from Gary not you...)

Key is, we all have different learning patterns. Some stuff we picked them fast, some it takes forever.
However, I am fairly sure the PC works. For some people it will take longer. Actually 7 months which is the duration of your experience with them is not much with respect to the time you have ridden bikes.

If you want, shoot an email on what you are doing on the bike, I will look at it, and give you my thoughts.

That said, I would gladly exchange a steep learning curve on the PC with a steep learning curve in races...
Quote Reply
Re: I am really amazed by Gary... [Francois] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
He asked 2 million questions about the PC before getting a really good deal from Frank.
Start a website, with what he is planning to do etc...
Then in no time, drops the cranks with some excuse that I can't find valid because the way he intented to use the PC was what I did for the first 3 months or so, and saw lots of improvements, and now is posting the opinion of one person as if acorn's opinion was worth way more than all the others here who posted positive comments.

Gary you tried the cranks 2 weeks. that's it. How many miles on them?

Before, you come up again with the "yes, but I am a cyclist, you guys triathletes don't understand...remember that I have been riding a bit before doing tris..."
I think I know cycling pretty well.


Francois, I had to send them back, I let Frank know that I would be riding a non-PC equipped bike once per week prior to his accepting the deal.

One week later he insisted that I use a PC-equipped bike on all training rides exclusively or return the PC's (or pay full price). This conflicted with my training plans and I had no choice but to send them back.

Now you have the full story.
Quote Reply
Re: I am really amazed by Gary... [Gary in SD] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"This conflicted with my training plans and I had no choice but to send them back. "

Well, you had a choice to buy them, then you wouldn't have had to keep torturing us with your continuing posts, first to tell everyone how fast you're going to be, all about the wonderful testing and website you were to develop, and now with your continuing posts on everything from Franks patent to rehashing others experiences with the product.

You'd easily gain 2-3 mph if you spent as much time riding as you do thinking about Power Cranks.

Let it go man.
Quote Reply
Re: I am really amazed by Gary... [Trigeek] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sorry for torturing you





Smile! Tell you what, I think I've made my point ... I'll get back to riding. Franks makes a great product, but results differ in each user ... thats all.
Quote Reply
My .02 ... [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
One thing I try to do is to look at the feedback I get from users and try to figure out what is working and what is not and then, try to figure out why, so I can come up with principles to maximize the benefits of the cranks for the most people.

Two points jump out at me about this acorn's experience and failure to show improvement. These are 1, he didn'tuse them exclusively, even in those first months when he thought he did. and 2, he didn't race as he trained, racing at less power and less effiently than he trained.

1. He didn't train on them exclusively, even though he rode his PC bike exclusively because he was also participating in Spinning classes, high cadence work on regular cranks which would have tended to undo everything the PC's were trying to retrain in the brain. It doesn't matter if the muscles have been trained if the brain won't use them.

2. He didn't race as he trained and as the PC's told him was fastest for him. Goatboys post (to a similar thread over on trinewbies) said it all "In fact, there was one week when I rode a 12 mile TT w/PC at 80-85 rpm & averaged 24.2 MPH and then did a sprint tri on similar terrain using regular cranks & fast spin & averaged 20.4 MPH." Not only did Acorn race at high cadence he went back to an aero position which could have cost him more power than he gained in aerodynamics. Racing on regular cranks at a cadence higher than one can sustain on the PC's forces one to revert back to less efficient syle.

Acorn is having trouble racing as fast as he trains. I suggest it is because he doesn't race like he rides in training. Nothing should be changed on race day.

Acorn's problems with adaptation bothers me. It is the first feedback I have had that it took anyone over 3 weeks to feel comfortable on the cranks (except for the endurance work, low cadences and increased pressure on the saddle). It sounds like he was trying topush the cadence though and never felt comfortable with what he could do and, instead, felt uncomfortable with what he couldn't do. Need to see a few more people who have similar experiences to be able to come up with something similar about them all that is different than the success stories to form an opinion on this.

It is feedback like this that reinforces my recommendations and reinforces why people (at least those who have adequately adapted) should consider racing on the cranks to see the maximum benefit, at least until the brain is completely adapted and the terrain will allow, which may take quite a bit of time.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Quote Reply
Re: My .02 ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Frank, you really leave yourself open to criticism when you use numbers ala Goatboy. Remember, your are astride your bike at the start of a TT with a flying finish. The triathlon starts with a swim, an energy expender, and you can't mount your bike until you exit transition and cross the mat and the same thing coming back, dismount walk/run before crossing the mat plus you have to negotiate traffic in triathlon, drafting reg, etc. I think I can TT at least two miles an hour faster than I can do the same distance in a triathlon.

Bob Sigerson
Quote Reply
Re: My .02 ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dr. Day, you mentioned that you'd like to see people race on the PC's rather early, as long as the terrain would allow them to.

Interestingly enough, I find that I am much more comfortable on PC's on hills...because I can rest on the downhills, and I naturally run lower cadences on the climbs (and I am faster on the climbs on PC's without even trying to be fast)...it's the long, fast, flat sections where I get SO whipped, and it's only my hip flexors that are whipped! I simply haven't had time to develop my cadence to where I normally was accustomed...but, you told me that would be the case, and I'm not worried about it...I've already noticed improved rpm's and know that they'll gradually get higher!

Just thought I'd point out to those unfamiliar with them about what might be considered easy terrain on PC's isn't neccessarily what you normally consider easy terrain to be...you welcome the opportunities to rest on downhills in the early stages!



Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)
Quote Reply
Re: My .02 ... [sig] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It is simply a measure, apples to apples. It is part of what he used to measure improvement. I don't think being on the bike at the start of a tt and needing to mount the bike after transition makes much difference in a 5 hour IM bike leg.

It seems i open myself to criticism whatever I write. I am getting used to it. :-)

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Quote Reply
the terrain issue ... [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
applies more to mountainbiking, not road racing. I know most people prefer hills on the PC's eralry on as long as they are not too severe. Sorry for the confusion.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Quote Reply
Re: My .02 ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
by the way FRank, elastic bands on the PC for transitions
work fine. just a detail, but it is important for short stuff...
Quote Reply
Re: My .02 ... [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Acorn's problems with adaptation bothers me. It is the first feedback I have had that it took anyone over 3 weeks to feel comfortable on the cranks (except for the endurance work, low cadences and increased pressure on the saddle).


Frank, you can't be serious. Plenty of people aren't comfortable on them after 3 weeks. Have you had a few sets returned? That's one group.

I'm four weeks into riding mine exclusively, 4 times a week. Two C-trainer steady pace rides for 40-60 minutes, one cadence spinning drill session and an outdoor ride that is now up to 2.5 hours. I will tell you right now that I am miserable on these things. I am nowhere near comfortable. It's not saddle pressure, and it's not the low cadence. It's the extremely high level of exertion and pain it takes me to go even 19 mph. It's not endurance either, as I'm in pretty good shape and a 3 hour ride is like a walk around the block for me -- normally. These cranks have my legs fried by the time I'm two miles from home. My normal easy/steady loop done at 19+ mph went off at 14.5 mph yesterday.

I've been happy to stay out of this debate, seeing as how I'm still very early on them. I'm going to go the full 8 weeks before reaching any conclusions, and I had planned to withhold comment until then. But your assertion above was too much bait for me to swim past.

I'll post again on this subject in 4 weeks. I did a very carefully controlled 30-minute power test on the Computrainer on December 1 with my standard tri bike setup. I'll do another one around February 1. I am open to protocol suggestions for the second test (low cadence, same bike, same position as the PC bike? test with PCs? test with regular cranks? You tell me how to do it, and I'll do it. I'll do two of them if that will help).

I do believe that 8 weeks is enough time for a training protocol change to start to sink in. All benefits are surely not achieved by then, but improvements should begin to show. When I upped my running frequency, the benefits became apparent at about 6 weeks. When I did heavy interval work on the bike last summer, results were obvious after about 6 weeks. The PCs should be able to show me SOMETHING after 8 weeks, yes?

.
Quote Reply
Re: My .02 ... [Julian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah these things are tough to get used to using- no question. In addition to kicking my butt they took my "super bike dude" ego down a few notches. I still am not 100% "adjusted" to using them, i.e. as good as on regular cranks, but I think that's part of the point. Yeah, it hurts to use them. Pain is weakness leaving the body. Oh no, I'm in a Power Crank debate. Anyway, I think they work awesome and I am faster because of them, both running and riding.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
Quote Reply
Re: My .02 ... [Julian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I would say in 4 years I have had, maybe, 10 or 12 pair returned. One guy said he just couldn't adapt. I had another call me at 7 weeks saying he couldn't adapt and I told him to take some more time and I think in about 2 weeks more he was comfortable on them.

I ask customers I meet at expos and essentially all tell me that it took them only 1-2 weeks to get comfortable on them. Admittedly, that is a skewed sample of those who come up and say hello, maybe they are the ones who like them the most. "Comfortable" is a lot different than getting "good" on them. "Comfortable" to me is when one doesn't have to look at the pedals or think about getting them 180 degrees - stuff like that. When riding them doesn't feel "strange". Not when going fast is easy.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Quote Reply

Prev Next