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"Back To Basics" run training - where would you start?
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So after an eventful IM Florida for me (PB by almost an hour...good swim, great bike (for me) and terrible run), I've quickly realized that I am severely lacking when it comes to the run. First and foremost, I know that my size is a delimiter, so I will be working on that (I'm a clyde in all aspects). But secondly, I am not a runner, never have been, but hope to be some day. I'm taking a break from IM for a few years to spend some time with the young family and figure now is a great opportunity to go back to basics with my run training...almost thinking that I need to start over with the run training and work my way back in the next few years for another IM assault.

I know that Fleck has spoken about the need to go back to basics for a lot of people, so I am now taking on his advice. I just don't know where to start. Any help would be great.

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Good athletes train when they want to, great athletes train when they don't......

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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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For me "back to the basics" meant training like a runner. Runners run everyday (or at least most days) so that's what I did through the winter last year. I didn't worry much about heart rate, never looked at pace or distance, just ran.
I usually have a problem with doing too much too soon on the running front so I followed all the common conventions of building up volume (logged time only) gradually and it seems to be working (despite a very less than stellar 3:58 in Kona). I haven't had any significant injuries and I have come to really enjoy running...at least I will when I start up again in Dec.

After a winter and spring of running without the gadgets, I felt I was ready to do actual focused run workouts and take my new found efficiency and durablity and turn it into speed (still a work in progress for sure)

I found it helpful to pick a road race in early spring to keep the motivation up and to get a bit of a marker before the real work starts.
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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JFR, bro'...lol

After my requisite post-IM / home renovation break, I'm going to run 4-5X per week, and hit the pool 2-3X per week. I'm going to give ol' yeller a rest until Feb/March.

You looking for 5k speed, or 10k/half speed? What's the 'challenge' whos a$$ you're going to kick...?
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [snoots] [ In reply to ]
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I'm thinking I just want to become a better runner - not really looking for speed right now. This is really just getting back to basics - kinda like what itseazy wrote above.

The challenge is a team challenge through Running Free - run every day in December...we'll see if that's a good start for the running.

_______________________________

Good athletes train when they want to, great athletes train when they don't......

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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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A couple years? You can do all kinds of stuff for your running in that time.

Running is great because its the easiest, least complicated thing you can do: It really is easy to run a lot (frequency, not mileage) without sacrificing time / family etc.

JFR works: In my opinion, frequency is the basis for all of it: Whether that's 4x a week or 10x a week. I've had gains in doing something as measly as 1.5 miles AM (+ some other workout: Maybe core, weights, 30 min. cycle) and 3 miles PM most days ... And I'm a fastish runner for a tri guy (36 10K) ... Any 15+ min. on your feet, with a HR over 100 counts, IMHO. The more times you spend 15+ min. on your feet, the fitter you become. If you think of it that way, 10X a week is hardly daunting.

Of course most of it should be done at easy pace (2-3 min slower than all-out 5K pace) ... Once you get in that habit for quite a few weeks, then add more specific stuff: Longer runs, strides, hills, tempo, etc.

Good luck and have fun.
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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I hear you. Every day in December...? That's pretty cool. I know for me there would be some days around the holidays that it might be tough to get out and run... the treadmill in the basement could give you an advantage...lol...
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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Go out there and run... but just run... don't worry too much about your HR. Don't worry at all about speed. Build a base by running frequently, ideally @ least 5 times a week. You do not need to run long but if you want you can throw a weekly 1h30 run.

in addition, focus on your running technique:
* Cadence,
* Foot landing ("under you/slightly in front of you", but not in front of you)
* use you glutes and core to move your leg forward.
* slightly bend knee
* open chest (like you are showing your boobs)
* relaxed arms... no arm crossing...
etc...

Fred.
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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I'm in the same boat. After my first IM this year, the goal for '08 revolves around getting the running down. All winter I'm just thinking of running. Not worried about pace or intervals, just run every day. In fact after a few back to back run days I figured why not start a streak? I'd never done more than 5 in a row, so I figured go for 10. Then 20. Now I'm at day 43 of running every day, 30 minutes minimum. I feel great, the legs are fine most days and if they aren't, they come around quickly. I can really feel how my body's adapted to the daily run and it's now a routine, I don't think much about it, and the power of the streak gets me out the door on many days where in the past I would have just skipped it.

The next milestone is 50 days and if I can do 50, why not 100? If i can do 100, nothing will stop me except injury or mental weakness. I'd stop if I got hurt, but stopping for any other reason would mean I'm weak. At least that's what I'm telling myself. So it's also an excercise in mental toughness.
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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I'm doing the same....and now am running 6x/week. I have a different ache/pain every week - but they do seem to go away....I'm only a month in (I bumped from 4-5x/wk) and it seems to be getting better.

I'm a big believer in frequency - short runs are great. I've never averaged over 30 miles/wk for a month so for me 5-6 hours of running is a lot - and to my family - its only a little. Cycling just takes too much time....but be careful - don't increase frequency too fast or any otehr aspect of your running for that matter. Avoiding injury is key.

I like running slow and easy (often slower than E/L pace per Daniels) - its fun and relaxing. I can run a 40 min 10K (roughly 40 flat) and I spend most of my time running 9-10 min miles. I also like quick/light feet - I do try and run at a stride rate of >90/min.

I'm following Daniels Running Formula (thats the title of the book) - general principles - I like the paces, rules for increasing, what to do after time off....Highly recommend buying it and reading it - its an easy read.

Good luck. Its hard to give you advice re: how to restart without knowing your recent runs (i.e. frequency, total time running per week, paces, types of work-outs, race times...). I'd post those if I were you.

Dave
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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One of the best things you can do for your IM run is to slow down during the bike leg. You mentioned that you had a great bike but a poor run. That is a classic sign of biking too hard. Even if you greatly improve your run fitness, you will have a poor run again if you repeat that mistake. Maybe you are a better IM runner than you think and you just paced the bike poorly? There are lots of very good runners walking the last 6 miles of an IM while discussing their "killer" bike split.

Worth considering carefully as you put a strategy together to improve your race times.

Mike
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [Mike Prevost] [ In reply to ]
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I've been struglling with that theory. I did have what i considered a great bike (for me - 5:48), but I felt fresh, was doing really well up until mile 4. From that point on, it wasn't about not being able to continue physically, it seemed to be more mental. But I am a big guy, not a runner, and need to become a runner. I think regardless of whether I went 20-30 minutes slower on the bike, I still would have had the same mental breakdown. I'd post my times, frequency, etc, but I'm not sure it would help...i know I'm not a good runner, I just want to "start over" and I have some time to do it. So I just want to know where to start...all of the responses so far have been great and I'm already building them into my "plan" - which is to JFR and enjoy it. I'll worry about all the focussed efforts, workouts, gadgets when i feel comfortable JFRing...

thanks to all for your input so far...much appreciated

_______________________________

Good athletes train when they want to, great athletes train when they don't......

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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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All you need is 2 years of 3 days 30 min and 3 days of 60 min runs per week. That will give you 4.5 hours of running per week consistently, or ~470 hours of running over 2 years....don't worry about speed or distance...just run. when it comes to running there is no magic...just run consistently without getting injured and the way to do that is to run slowly and not do too much at a time :-). Make sure that you never run so fast on one day that you are too sore to run the next day ("NEVER DO ANTHING IN TODAY'S TRAINING THAT TAKES YOU OUT OF TOMORROW'S WORKOUT...")

Dev
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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For a back to basis approach that is applicable no matter where you are in your running development (beginner to elite) a few fundamentals hold true.

1. Consistency - as i tell my athletes, day after day after day after day after week after week after month after month after year after year to see true, sustained improvement that does not fade. fitness is not a magic trick that can be pulled out of a hat like a bunny rabbit, any yokle can make you faster for 6-10 weeks, but can any yokle make you faster consistently over 40-60 weeks?

2. frequency - more often then often.

3. sustainable increases in volume. which means going from 20 to 23 to 26 to 30 to 33 mpw instead of going from 20 to 40 for two weeks then saying f*ck that. Running 10 weeks at 30mpw is much smarter then running 4 weeks at 60 miles per week then taking off 5 weeks due to injury.

4. duration - 20min is a start but 45 min is better, day after day......**see #1

5. Speed happens but most people just plain ole f*ck up getting faster (countless threads on ST proving that, so call it N=50+). You can get fast off of fast running for a bit but there is no subsitute for day after day after week after week....consistency. No amount fo speedwork for 6-10 weeks will make you faster then 1 solid year of running day after day after........**see #1

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Aero testing late May, PM for details

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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Brian you said, "No amount fo speedwork for 6-10 weeks will make you faster then 1 solid year of running day after day after........**see #1"

You gave him a bailout...I told him to run 6 days a week for 104 weeks, not 52!!!
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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sorry dev, I didn't read any of the posts before responding.

are you in for WF?

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Aero testing late May, PM for details

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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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Choices range between WF, St. Croix and Ironman China...will need to decide soon. Are you back to WF?

By the way, Fleck would have said 5 years of training 6x per week :-)
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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yeah, i think I'll rent the same house. You can't beat a foosball table in the downstairs living room. You want in if I rent?

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Aero testing late May, PM for details

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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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Firstly, I am neither a coach nor a good runner.

I would start with not running.

The first phase would be a period of preparation for 4-6 weeks where I would be preparing myself to begin running. Use walking, weight training and core exercise along with stretching to "injury proof" yourself. This will get you prepared for gradually easing into entry level mileage and then a gradual ramp up of not more than about 10% per week.

Consistency and moderation are the keys here. Building over time. Building the musculature and connective tissues to endure the pounding, then building the base, then building the mileage, then building the intensity...

That is a process that takes place over weeks and months. I wager, if you can stick to it, it will net major benefits.

Best of luck

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [mileader] [ In reply to ]
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Running every day will simply "run" you down. Follow an intelligent schedule that lets you stay fresh, and add some energy to the training. Mindless mile after mile will make you good at just that.

Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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day after day after day after day after week after week after month after month after year after year to see true, sustained improvement that does not fade. fitness is not a magic trick that can be pulled out of a hat like a bunny

It has been good to read this to provide some extra motivation when the alarm goes off at 0500. Nov-Feb are going to be my major work months to be ready for Duathlon Nationals in April and May. I am trying to get my running levels back up. Some days it is a grind, but I'm back over seven hours a week with the goal of some consistent 10 hour weeks by late Dec and January. Fortunately, the weather is very pleasant right now and not too cold. When it is 40 degrees and the wind is blowing in January it will be much less fun.

Chad
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
but I'm back over seven hours a week with the goal of some consistent 10 hour weeks by late Dec and January.[/quote] please tell me that is for running and biking. I would like to be in the same mile as you when you finish. Although at this rate, I'll have more sucess standing at the finish line cheering you in. Maybe you should get transfered next door so I have a training partner. Either that or I'll be heading to tucson every weekend to train.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta Twitter Aero testing late May, PM for details

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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [cdw] [ In reply to ]
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When it is 40 degrees and the wind is blowing in January it will be much less fun.

Where in SoCal are you that it's like that?

Come to Boulder... we'll run when it's -5 out. Doesn't happen often but you still gotta go do it on the coldest day of the year just to say you did it! :)


________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'19 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
When it is 40 degrees and the wind is blowing in January it will be much less fun.

Where in SoCal are you that it's like that?

Come to Boulder... we'll run when it's -5 out. Doesn't happen often but you still gotta go do it on the coldest day of the year just to say you did it! :)
Try Minnesota.... I love when -10 is the HIGH for the day.

SIC VIS PACEM PARA BELLUM

http://physasst.blogspot.com/
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [physasst] [ In reply to ]
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you guys are crazy. 8-)

________________________
34 kona qualifiers 2006-'19 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
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Re: "Back To Basics" run training - where would you start? [tri-3] [ In reply to ]
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No one is trying to say that you'd run the same pace and distance day after day. I remember the thread some months ago (maybe a year ago) where this was talked about. The idea was to run every day, but some of those days were nothing more than 2 miles in the morning, and going about as slowly as you possibly can.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

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