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pretty...
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I saw this on alibabwa's FB: Katie Makkai's "Pretty"


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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Just my opinion: That lady is a freakin' nut job.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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That's awesome Khai.
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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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It's /pretty/ intense. I like how the poem stands alone even unperformed (though the performance of it is really good).

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wandering through life shackled to a shopping bag, beneath those 2 pretty syllables.

bit of brilliance in that line, for instance, as poetry. As is the structure of it, going from 'not about the mom' to 'not about her' to 'not about the daughter.'

I'll stop explicating it ;-)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
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Last edited by: tigerchik: Nov 9, 10 2:27
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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent post! clearly from an evolved guy:)

Having worked in the field of eating disorders/as a therapist for over 25 years, this hits so many issues women struggle with, often for decades. Typically, the whole ball of wax gets started with a simple remark about a girls' weight, shape or prettiness. I have always believed that this is one of the true gifts of sport- it allows girls to first experience their bodies for what they can do, rather than for how they look.

Nice video, definitely intense.

Alison
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Re: pretty... [Alison] [ In reply to ]
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Love the video, I work in a rehab hospital for patients with serious eating disorders, and I totally agree, it's really sad how little of a comment can get people started down that horrible road
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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the text version: http://dianasmanylifetimes.blogspot.com/...e-makkai-pretty.html

I've read and reread the entire text and am still pretty flabbergasted. Please explain to me.

I understand where she is coming from and somewhat her thoughts behind it. It seems however to me that she, with quite the broad brush may I add, paints all of the women who choose to take the time to make themselves presentable and well put-together as clowns in some kind of sexist masquerade. That they couldn't enjoy the life they lead. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a feminist push more toward a woman's choice as to how she lives her life as opposed to one devoutly opposite of what some men may find ostensibly attractive.

It seems to me that she is saying that looks should be completely ignored only to focus upon intelligence and creativity.

Perhaps I don't see the foul in taking time and effort in putting together one's appearance, and to the extent that its something that you can manipulate on your own why it shouldn't reflect postively or negatively on your self worth. A woman could have book smarts beyond Stephen Hawking but if she lets herself become a slob and makes no effort to put herself together for social functions, galas, or fund raisers of the like, in my opinion that doesn't show strong character, it shows a lack of understanding and/or respect for societal norms. If a woman (or man for that matter) allows themself to become grossly obese for no reason other than sloth that SHOULD show a lack of self worth. Rebellion is fine for middle school philosophies and political tyranny, but in this realm it seems a bit juvenile.

Please note that I'm not saying that women should gleam their self respect, image, and worth from looks and looks alone; nor am I saying that women should go to extreme measures to fix topical "impurities". What I am saying is that the philosophy that the author (in my reading) subscribes to negates, or at the very least attempts to, all the efforts of the women who choose to take that extra time to find that dress that is just right for the occasion, spend the extra five minutes at the gym, eat two scoops as opposed to three of ice cream, and make sure their make-up looks nice before they head out the door.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: pretty... [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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I am going to take a crack at responding but am really hoping other women will chime in.

This, in my view, and granted I am pretty biased, is about collective body shame that comes from multiple, multi-billion dollar industries that have for generations told women that who they are is first and foremost defined by what they look like. That being thin and beautiful is the only ticket that will get you the really good stuff in life. Furthermore, that anyone who doesn't measure up needs to be fixed up or should feel ashamed of themselves. It doesn’t get more feminist than that and Susie Orbach’s Fat is a Feminist Issue first published in 1978 got that ball rolling.

Not sure if you have daughters or not but the best example I can provide is to ask, would you want your 7 year old daughter to run at school in gym because she loves the feel of her legs working hard and the feel of her lungs pumping or because she ate a muffin this morning and is scared she is going to get fat? Make no mistake that is where we are today- 7 year olds being admitted for treatment for a disease/disorder that will potentially kill them or at the very least rob them of their childhood, adolescence and physical growth.

There is a huge difference between putting your make-up on to feel you are putting your best foot forward and exercising because it is good for your health. These things we do because we love ourselves and want to take good loving care of ourselves. My take on the video is that she is not talking about self-care but rather outrage at being denied the opportunity to feel good about herself just as she was- nose and all.

I want my daughters to grow up knowing they can do pretty much anything.

Alison
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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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I think this might be the Sesame Street version of that...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enpFde5rgmw
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Re: pretty... [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree that her point is to ignore how you look etc. It's pretty clear to me that she is not saying this, since her hair is done (that's not a wash and go look if you ask me) and she has a nose ring. Things done to enhance her appearance.

But she is commenting on societal norms that might need to be changed. Societal norms are not static and things are being done to change them all the time and different people have different opinions on how they should be changed.

My take on her opinion is that maybe little girls shouldn't ask if they'll be pretty, but if they'll be smart, or strong, or fast, or what ever else
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Re: pretty... [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
What I am saying is that the philosophy that the author (in my reading) subscribes to negates, or at the very least attempts to, all the efforts of the women who choose to take that extra time to find that dress that is just right for the occasion, spend the extra five minutes at the gym, eat two scoops as opposed to three of ice cream, and make sure their make-up looks nice before they head out the door.

What is wrong with negating all that? Do you know how much time, money, and extra stress goes into keeping up with those societal norms? Its silly, and a shame really - essentially women are wasting all of that time and talent and mental capacity which could instead be spent contributing to society.

Wouldn't you be a little frustrated if you had to put on make-up and blow dry and curl your hair every morning? HUGE waste of time, and for no real reason, if you ask me.
Have you tried walking in heels all day long, and really, what does that ACTUALLY contribute that just wearing a pair of dress shoes like guys wear wouldn't? It just unnecessarily fatigues you.
Why do I need to spend the EXTRA 5 minutes at the gym to get those perfect abs/legs/butt/whatever (over the 30-60/day I need to stay healthy)? Just to look especially good? How does that really benefit anyone?


-----

"Alice laughed. `There's no use trying,' she said 'one can't believe impossible things.' `I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. `When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!'"
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Re: pretty... [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a feminist push more toward a woman's choice as to how she lives her life as opposed to one devoutly opposite of what some men may find ostensibly attractive.

Perhaps I don't see the foul in taking time and effort in putting together one's appearance, and to the extent that its something that you can manipulate on your own why it shouldn't reflect postively or negatively on your self worth.

What I am saying is that the philosophy that the author (in my reading) subscribes to negates, or at the very least attempts to, all the efforts of the women who choose to take that extra time to find that dress that is just right for the occasion, spend the extra five minutes at the gym, eat two scoops as opposed to three of ice cream, and make sure their make-up looks nice before they head out the door.

(sorry to cut and paste bits of your post, I hope I'm not misrepresenting you. Let me know if I am; just trying to pull out the parts I wanted to address)

I think one of your points is that women should be able to choose what sort of measures they take towards their appearance, and we shouldn't disparage those who do choose to put lots of time into it.

But another important point, and what the woman is trying to say is that women really don't have a completely free CHOICE, because it is SOOOOO ingrained and influenced by what we are taught, from day one, about what it means to be feminine, and what it means to be "good" at being a woman. And sometimes, the ideals that are held up for us, are for many of us, IMPOSSIBLE to meet. I like to think that I am a fairly attractive woman, but no matter what I do, I will NEVER look like a model (fitness, fashion, or otherwise). Have you seen this one? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hibyAJOSW8U I feel like this is the standard we are held to, but I don't have photoshop in real life!


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"Alice laughed. `There's no use trying,' she said 'one can't believe impossible things.' `I daresay you haven't had much practice,' said the Queen. `When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!'"
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Re: pretty... [Alison] [ In reply to ]
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At the risk of sounding sexist; with the exception of forums like this, where we all converse before (if ever) meeting each other in person, generally speaking you are first judged by what you look like. It's the first impression that my guess is everyone's (I know mine sure did) mother and father told them to make. Should people be foremost judged by their looks? I think that (at least the effort you put in to making them presentable) along with intelligence, work ethic, manners, et al. should be how people are judged, but no not foremost.

I see what you're saying about putting your best foot forward but the jest I get from her is that you shouldn't put either foot forward, because people should just accept you for you. I also see that the problems that once seemed contained to adulthood have more than trickled down to children. Eating disorders and obesity both. Granted I don't have a daughter but should I ever I'd have to think I'd want her to exercise if she were obese (like the vast number of children that are these days) to lose weight.

I read two separate parts of the poem. The first of which explaining her mothers actions, which I definitely don't condone. If people want to have unnecessary surgery to change their appearance then I think that's a choice they should make for themselves and one that shouldn't be made for them. The second aspect of the poem however seems to say the circus that she mentions is so absolutely ludicrous that the opposite should be had. I understand what you mean that the fashion and marketing industry particularly highlight very thin women, and that can have a negative impact on a young woman's self imagine. I just feel that the complete opposite of that is just as ludicrous. Obesity is a problem in our country; in fact, one of the biggest. Heart disease is still one of the leading causes of death in the United States.

If I have a daughter I want her to grow up being a realist. Exercising enough to be healthy and making sure she is put together appearance wise when she needs to be.

Ghia- I love your taste in automobiles. I do however like the Citroen DS a lot as well, always thought that was a car before its time, still probably is. I noticed what you noticed too and I think it speaks to a dichotomy that she doesn't explicitly talk about. What about the women that are happy with working hard to maintain their physique or really enjoy fashion? For the little girls: I just don't understand why they shouldn't ask if they'll be pretty. They should ask all of those questions, and the answer should be that you can attain whatever goal you realistically set.

Triing- No risk of misrepresentation here, the fact that you asked makes me smile. I'm too used to the mud-slinging of the Lavender Room :)
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Wouldn't you be a little frustrated if you had to put on make-up and blow dry and curl your hair every morning? HUGE waste of time, and for no real reason, if you ask me.
Have you tried walking in heels all day long,
Worked for J. Edgar Hoover didn't it ;) I will say I've never tried to walk in heels, I don't think it'd go to well with my daily attire. I've dated girls that love them though and also dated a few that wouldn't wear them, conundrum I suppose. But I digress... I have seen the dove commercial before and completely understand that the "standards" are very often unrealistic. It just seems to me that the (I'll term it) "Environment of Acceptance" swings the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. I think anything beyond what is done to stay healthy should be by one's own choice, but what I often hear is an "accept your body for what it is" mentality, not "exercise, eat right, take care of yourself, and be healthy" mentality. I guess my theory is that the ethic we should send our kids is to be the best you can in all facets of life.




When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: pretty... [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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"That lady is a freakin' nut job."

Not at all. She's dramatizing her point, which is quite valid IMHO.

However, Doris Day had a much better singing voice. :-) (She sang that song originally in the 1950's.)
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Re: pretty... [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
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Haha, I definitely agree about Miss Day, though I'd be remiss if I wasn't at least slightly aware of West Side Story. I think Natalie Wood was 'prettier' though :)



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: pretty... [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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A really valid point that you raise is around that of obesity. For decades the obesity folks and the eating disorder folks just didn't mix. The philosophies were seen to be too divergent to ever bring them together for civil debate. Over the last 5 years though there have been new efforts, particularly around school based prevention, to address both the issues of obesity AND eating disorders together. There has been a better grasp that to do a bad job in one is to effectively increase the incidence of the other. The messages that have been prolific in the obesity field (e.g. all fats are bad) get misinterpreted and you end up with people behaving in the extreme. Teaching parents to live an active life, eat family meals with their kids again and do things other than shop with their kids is surprisingly often enough to turn some of this around.

Back to why another reason this stuff damages and enrages women- quite simply there continues to be a double standard. Men can be large, less attractive and still `get the good stuff' especially if they are wealthy but as you pointed out, a woman can be smart as Hawking but if she isn't a looker, she likely won't be taken as seriously etc...

I really appreciate you actually putting your thoughts to a post- extra brownie points to you for braving the storm!!

Alison
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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Hm.

My 6yo daughter told me she was worried about being fat. Seriously.

I am mortified and have so little idea how to deal with this.

Our society is so broken, humans are disposable. I know this to be true, I just came back from Vegas ;-)

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: pretty... [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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As a mom of two daughters, though they are grown now, it is scary to hear them make these remarks. The images and the diet talk are all around them in a way that just wasn't the same for us. The simple things still matter most- eat as many family meals together as possible and talk about everything other than body weight, shape and dieting; no diet talk at home especially for Mom's and Dad's; and remind her about all the wonderful things there are about her that have nothing to do with how she looks, what she weighs or what she eats. Lotsa hugs too of course :)

alison
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Re: pretty... [Alison] [ In reply to ]
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This isn't surprising considering the images of women in the media that we are constantly exposed to and the underlying messages. What constitutes an acceptable look is much more constricted for women than for men. While a young, buff, good looking guy is desirable, an old, balding out of shape guy can also desirable as long as he is wealthy, powerful or holds a prestigious position (actually, these are pretty dysfunctional characterizations of what a man should be). Society doesn't grant the same for women.
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Re: pretty... [AndyPants] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
My 6yo daughter told me she was worried about being fat. Seriously.

That's freakin' brutal... I wonder where she picked that up?

Hopefully with some solid guidance and encouragement she'll bounce out of that fairly quickly - before it "takes root".

Man...


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Re: pretty... [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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What strikes me a particularly interesting is how you arrived at that reading of her work. I got a completely different message - namely, that being defined as and by the term "pretty" is an extremely small and fairly negative way of viewing oneself.

The author is none of the things you mentioned - just look at her. She's well put together, and obviously takes pride in her appearance. But her appearance is not her defining characteristic. She's passionate, eloquent, fiercely opinionated, and intelligent. She's angry. She's funny. She's brave. And yes, pretty, too. But what about her struck you the most? I'd be surprised if you honestly claimed that it was her looks.

THAT, to me, was her point. Not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with "being pretty". But that only being pretty is a far cry from what any modern woman ought to strive for. Based on her looks I'd wager that her daughter will be pretty too. But I'm also quite certain that she'll be far more than just pretty...


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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What I don't understand however is why people feel the need to say that defining one's self by ones looks should be a "small and fairly negative way of viewing ones self." Human beings are a many faceted species, one that has excelled in multiple avenues from the dawn of civilization. Gary Kasparov was defined by his chess skills, Albert Einstein his mathematics, Jesse Owens his athletic prowess; yet, we don't sweep these as being a narrowly defined facet of one's self. The same was true thousands of years ago. Plato was lauded for his philosophy, as was Socrates, Pythagoras was an amazing mathematician. Pheidippides was praised for his athletic talents. Helen's face launched 1,000 ships.

What exactly isn't she that I said she was? I called her a nutjob and that I stick by because I think its juvenile and irrational to just haphazardly denounce opinions you don't agree with; which is what I feel she's doing. Cindy Crawford is an absolutely beautiful woman whose looks have fed her family and given her an amazing career. Perhaps had she not availed that possibility she never would have reached her potential.

If I go by your theory of her presentation we should then praise Khrushchev for banging his shoe on the podium in front of the UN? Passionate, fiercely opinionated, intelligent, angry, brave... What I don't understand is why she or any other woman should be the arbiter of what an individual chooses to do. Thats my beef and my only one. If she (or any other woman or man for that matter) chooses to accept that view point, hey good on them, that is their choice; to say however that those that choose to live opposite are living in some kind of circus is absurd though.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Sadly I think she got it from me... :-( I mentioned how I was basically turfed from fully sponsored ballet at 14 when boobs and hips started to show up - and how mine were significantly bigger than most other dancers. I have since tried to explain that ballet dancers are expected to be tall and thin but that doesn't mean that's the "perfect" look or size or shape. But I have to be so careful now - what I say what I do - and what's also sad is how much I now catch myself with these types of negative thoughts. It's so ingrained.

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS
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Re: pretty... [original PV] [ In reply to ]
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If you're seriously comparing the "skill" of being pretty with that of a chess grandmaster, a mathematician or an Olympic athlete, I'm going to have to recuse myself from this conversation.


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Re: pretty... [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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Recuse yourself if you like, it doesn't change the fact that I feel she is dogging on women who choose to make their appearance more important than any other facet they could follow.

I get similarly angry with people who dog on women that choose to stay home and raise a family vice following a career path.
It gets annoying when people espouse idealism over realism when that idealism is only based on their own opinions and conjectures and leave no room for someone that is choosing their own path in life, not harming a soul. You also did not answer my question. I've shared polite commentary with Allison I don't see any reason you and I cannot do the same.



When someone pulls laws out of their @$$, all we end up with are laws that smell like sh!t. -Skippy
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