Ride what you tested at until you take your test again. I've always been told it's better to "push your threshold up from below it than to try and pull it up from above it."

I totally get your frustration though. It sucks holding yourself back, especially when you know you can do better. But you're not really sacrificing much even if you're below you're actual threshold, especially this early in the season. Most of your riding right now should just be chill anyways. A bit of lower threshold shouldn't change how hard you ride by very much.

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Kristen Peterson
Pro Triathlete
http://www.KristenPeterson.com

Wow, my bf said the same thing (almost word for word) about pushing it up from below. :)

I have a goal threshold I want to get to at least before September, but I need to lose another 30lbs (sigh....never let yourself go) so I'm hoping in addition to improving my actual threshold, also improve my power to weight ratio.

I'm having so much fun on the CT, that I am probably a bit impatient, but I'm also still figuring out what I can do!

Google "sweet spot training" re: pushing your threshold up from below etc. Also, much to be read on that topic (push/pull) on the google wattage list.

I started reading up on sweet spot training - thank you, very interesting.

Which I guess leads to another question - sweet spot training seems to be about building your aerobic base.

But what if my aerobic base is better than my bike legs (I know, embarrassing)? I didn't really sweat - a bit on my hands - during the threshold test. My max HR during the test was 86%, though my average was well below that (I forgot to hit the lap button on my Garmin so I don't know what the average was for the threshold). My bf hit a max of 96% his last threshold test. I can talk when I do my intervals, even when I'm doing them at higher than what my threshold test would dictate I do.

All of which annoys me - especially b/c I've been a runner for years and can't help but think that muscles are muscles, and if my legs are strong enough to haul around my overweight butt running they should be fine on the bike. My bf says though that they haven't adapted to cycling yet, though in my bad moments I suspect he's just being nice to me and saying that.

Anyways, so I am really increasing my aerobic base if my aerobic capacity is well above my leg capacity? Won't using a higher threshold than what my threshold test would dictate I use help build my leg strength?

Also, one other question - so I have 30lbs to lose to my goal weight. B/c I'm bigger, should I have a higher watts/power capacity? As I get smaller, will my power drop but my power to weight ratio improve? I'm also trying to figure out what sort of threshold watts I should be aiming for as a girl.

One other thing - when you're figuring out watts/kg, you just divide the watts of your threshold (aka, 20 min * .95)/weight in kg, right? If I'm picking the correct watts, my watts/kg is 2.42.

What should I be aiming for?

What KIND of intervals are you doing? I mean are these 30sec all outs or 5min hill climbs? Big difference right?

AP

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"How bad could it be?" - SimpleS

Usually the 6*1min intervals - so one minute on, one minute off. I can do those at a threshold of 200w at hit 122% of threshold no problem. Last week I did them and 6*45sec intervals with a longer off period (I set up the program wrong) and was able to easily do them at a threshold of 230w and hit 128% of threshold during the 'on'.

I know that's not great compared to what you guys can do (I'll come clean, my threshold from my threshold test was 183w), but hopefully I'll keep improving. Other than doing a few short rides outside to prepare for my try-a-tri last September, I haven't really ridden (unless you count hopping on the old trainer for 15-30 minutes and complaining to myself about being bored, my girl parts hurting, and being bored, and being bored....but I LOVE the computrainer! Seeing my watts is so satisfying! Now I'd rather bike than run). I know, I suck for being such a bike slacker.

My plan is to do pyramid intervals tonight b/c they sound like fun - I'm not sure how long the 'off' is, I think 1 min, but the on is 1 min, 2 min, 3 min, 4 min, 3 min, 2 min, 1 min. I think I should be able to do that :)

When you say you've hit 120% before, in what manner? Eg what type of intervals were you hitting those numbers on? 120% of what?

I think my general answer would be to say go with what you got in the CT. It's not clear to me you're comparing apples to apples.

That said, if you can in fact do more then do more. While there can be something to be said for working below your threshold for longer periods of time there's also no sense in inadvertently sandbagging your efforts or doing them slower than you can because of a test.
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/...ven-deadly-sins.html
Specifically #6

Are you working with a coach? Obviously you'd want to ask them about all this to make sure you're on the same page.

Thanks Mayhew, this is really interesting to me, and a very helpful link.

I've been hitting 120%+ on the CT (all on the computrainer) doing interval sets from 6*1min to doing 45sec (a mistake) intervals. The 120% is off what I set the threshold at on the CT - I think it's ErgVideo that I do the intervals in.

So we got my threshold using #6.

Essentially, the intervals I do on my interval days (6*1, for instance, or tonight, pyramids) are too short to really determine FTP. I can see that, b/c while I have been able to hold up to 128% of 230w for the 45 sec intervals, I seriously doubt I could do that for a full hour.

While what you did is not on "the list", it's a reasonable enough way to determine threshold. It's not a test I use with my clients but a test you can repeat and are willing to do a lot probably trumps a lot of other things.

The 6x1 workout you are doing it probably not a good way to estimate your FTP. In fact I'd almost argue you *should* be able to do 120% of your FTP on those intervals.

So, go with what your have as your FTP for now and then keep an eye on the power you can actually produce during longer intervals.

Thanks Mayhew.

I can easily ride 120% of my FTP doing the 6*1, as I've ridden using a higher threshold than my FTP (based on yesterday's test) doing those intervals and been fine doing 120% or higher.

This is very helpful though. At another suggestion, I am also going to start doing longer intervals (20 min) at my FTP 1X/week. I really want to do all I can to improve in this. It's one reason why I'm having so much fun, b/c I can see how much I've improved, even in just a few weeks!

If you're looking to improve FTP then spend time at or around FTP. The 6x1 is really not the most effective way to improve FTP. 2x20 and the like are the best approaches.

Sweet Spot Training:
http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspottraining.html

is about making effective use of your time if you have more than an hour to use. It's still threshold focused but of a different flavor.

That is what I will do then. Maybe not tonight, since I just did the FTP test yesterday, I will do the pyramid intervals, but starting next week I will do both in the week.

Thanks for the link :) I am going to have a bunch of reading to do tonight!

No problem. Good luck! Let me know if you have questions.

I will, thank you for all your help! Much appreciated :)

I just want to quote something from the 7 deadly sins article which I feel is important, esp to people new to training with power.



The more you train with power the more you just sort of know what your threshold is with in a certain range and what you are capable of doing based on where you are in training and how fresh you feel. You also learn how to pace your efforts in longer intervals like 2x20. The more you do them, the more you know how they should feel. When they stop hurting and you no longer want to die halfway thru the second 20' you know it's time to retest.

It's easy to think oh, I can do X wattage for 2x20 and then end up fading out. I prefer to build into them and have the second 20 have a higher ap then the first. Try is the key word!

Ideally your power shouldn't drop as you get lighter. If you really have 30 lbs to lose, those 30 lbs are not going to change your power output. People on this board always talk about loosing too much weight and losing power. Perhaps someone can chime in here, but the vast majority of us have a LONG way to go until that happens. Especially women, since we carry more fat as it is.

I am too big, truly. A lifetime of binge and compulsive overeating which I've gotten mostly under control recently, and which when I was able to run allowed me to be at the big end of the normal (most of my life) spiraled my weight out of control with a few years of injury problems (last year, exacerbated by being heavy). A fear of a hilly tri in September is inspiring me to get my power to weight ratio better than what I would bother doing otherwise.

You guys are great though - so helpful and so much good knowledge! :)

I did the pyramid intervals tonight, but the wrong ones got set up (this time not by me) so instead of doing 1-2-3-4 and back down again at 120% of FTP, I did 30 seconds up by 30 second intervals to 2 mins varying from 140% -127%. Still, it took me by surprise, since I wasn't expecting anything over 120%, and psychology is still a big part of my rides. Since I've got a sore throat and a runny nose I'll take it. Next time I'll actually ride the right interval set, heh.

Off to do some reading on power, thresholds, and sweet spot training! :)

Quickly skimmed the thread. A few things. Just b/c you are/were a runner don't expect that to translate to cycling. Training is specific to the task at hand.

Second what distance are you racing at? If you are racing IM, there is nothing wrong with pulling your FTP up right now. You will have plenty of time to push it up later as you become more specific in your training. I think someone said all your riding should be casual right now, I call BS on that. All your riding should be geared to making sure you can get your FTP up as high as you can get it for the specific duration that you are racing. (ie if you are doing IM, while having a high 1hr FTP is great, having a high 5 or 6 hr FTP is better, there is a strong correlation though between a high FTP and higher power outputs at longer durations)

Third, if you think the test was invalid, then retest.

Fourth - If you are holding 120-128% of your FTP during your threshold intervals, you need to rethink your FTP bc it's probably higher. If you are holding 120-128% for your Vo2 max intervals, you probably need to rethink your FTP.

As you get lighter your power to weight ratio will improve. Most people talk FTP, because it's easy to understand. But two people with an FTP of 250 are not the same rider. One could have a p/w ratio of 3.2 w/kg the other could have a 3.8w/kg. This is really what you want to drive up, and increasing your FTP is one way, losing some weight is another and doing both is a double kick someone else's ass in a race whammy.

Finally you are not trying to build leg strength. You are trying to develop your aerobic capacity, your cycling fitness is limited not by how strong you are but by the biochemical reactions taking place. Strength has nothing to do with it, otherwise I'm going to go find a body builder to win the next TDF.

Hope that helps.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Wow, thank you. B/c I'm crazy (literally, ha) I'm training for a HIM. I'm also doing a Ride to Conquer Cancer which is 2 days in a row of 160k each day, but that will be at a far more relaxed output.

I will retest is 2 weeks, when we're done the stupid Isagenix cleanse (my bf had a miserable time with the fast day yesterday and his workout, so we're skipping the fast days - whee - but I'm still hungry!). It probably won't be hugely different, but I think I can improve it.

I don't want to do casual riding b/c I'd rather be working towards a goal, however far off it is. :)

That actually makes sense about the leg strength thing. It's how my muscles work, rather than how strong they are.

Thanks again! This has been a very helpful and interesting thread!

  
Hi Teags,
Have you ever heard the story related to Isacc Newton, quoting the end (hopefully correctly) with the royal society saying "we know the lion for his roar" ? Anyway, your story has a "signature" to it that probably only I recognize, and please correct me if I am wrong, but you must be using ErgVideos.
I can pretty much tell from the intervals you quote and the levels. Here is a short summary, it is kind of old and we have more available since that was written.
All those shorter intervals like 6x 1 minute are in the MAP intervals video and you also speak of the pyramids. (Geez, that's on my schedule tonight as 3 x the MAP set. It is hellahard to do three, I am nervous already.)

What you may be finding is that you are much like me...can do the shorter intervals but the longer sustained threshold efforts are especially difficult to do. I attribute this to my head as well as my previous bike race experience. I'd just rather do short and hard than long. It's more like how I've always ridden. Many authors say the MAP relationship to threshold is NOT a constant (ie, my MAP may be 125% of ftp, someone else may test at 130%) it is different in different people and types of athlete. You have some stuff above threshold, maybe exceeding others...right now anyway. The extreme case of this is MAX (sprint) power which has even looser correlation to the FTP.

Anyway, with regard to your test: I think you may have paced it a little incorrectly, and it is something you have to learn as you go. I will advise you to not attempt the next one with a goal number in your head and starting out immediately at that level. Usually we overestimate and die. It is clear you are beating yourself up a little bit and you are on your way to over-compensating on the next try. Relax. If you are really in disbelief of your threshold power, try the 2x20s in LongThreshold intervals, and use your test score as threshold setting. If you walk away from that workout feeling "that was easy" then indeed you underpaced your test, probably vastly. Inexperience, that's all. If you rank it a 8.5 or 9/10 difficulty or more, it's probably right and you have to work on the threshold workouts a bit more, if you believe that "performance factor" is going to benefit you in your target events. I think most experts agree it's helpful to have it big to succeed in most road events, cycling or tri.

Anyway, doing THAT is a good way to address your doubts without necessarily commiting to another full-on test, and you won't need any pacing skill to execute it. It does NOT define your threshold, but it will spit-ball how close 183 really is to the truth. It may help you understand before your next test just how much harder you can try to push in the test, without overcooking too early. Using the levels in the short MAP intervals is not going to really give you much guidance there.

Paul Smeulders
www.ergvideo.com

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ErgVideo.com

Whether structured or not, some will notice that a drawback of longer intervals at higher intensities is that once the interval segment is completed, there is a tendency to ease off pretty significantly in order to recover prior to the next interval. Regardless of whether training goals are based on power, heart rate, speed, or simply perceived effort/exertion, the focus is usually set on achieving at or above the specified level during the interval with little regard for levels maintained recovering between efforts. So how about in addition (or as an alternative) to 2x20 intervals, since you are training with a Computrainer, consider the 'Hour of Power' workout - HOP�f for short and was introduced by 'Bill Black' who is also a regular contributor to the Google Wattage Group.

The workout Is pretty straightforward and is designed to aid in liftting power at threshold but what sets this apart from other interval style workouts is that it mixes things up so that you are forced to ride on the edge for the entirety of the hour. In terms of improving threshold power, nearly everything I have read over the past several years indicates that to promote adaptation to new/higher power levels requires enduring training load for a minimum of 3-minutes. If equated to a training session in which our intervals will span 60-minutes (not inclusive of appropriate warmup/cooldown) with the intention of riding the entire 60-minutes at 85%-90% of threshold power as the base power level during our training session. Since hammering for 60-minutes straight gets rather monotonous, we add variety by letting each interval span a minimum of 3-minutes after which time the 'interval' is concluded with a surge over threshold power (115%-120% of FTP) for a brief period of between 10-30 seconds. Once the surge is completed, immediately begin the next interval by returniing back to the base power level at 85%-90% of threshold power. Unlike traditional 2x20 intervals that calls for recovery at 40%-60% FTP, the HOP forces the aerobic system to both adapt and attempt to recover despite the fact that you are still performing at high power output levels.

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Hi Paul,

I am indeed using ErgVideos - they are great! I love them! I always ride with the tv on but end up watching the video instead.

Hope you enjoyed your ride tonight. I have a day off since I'm sick. Boo.

Yup, I've been doing the MAP intervals and yesterday I did the Pyramid Max Aerobic intervals (meant to do the threshold ones but set up wrong :) ).

So MAP is something that I will have to play by ear, almost, and learn what is right for me.

The biggest problem I have is that my legs haven't adapted to cycling yet so I'm having trouble getting my heart rate up enough to get that side of the workout in. That said, I've improved a lot and I know I will keep on improving.

We don't have the 2*20 intervals unfortunately - something to save up for!

I think you're right about the pacing for my test - I'm still figuring out what I can do and I really wasn't sure when I did the test. I'll have a better idea next time. I kept worrying I'd burn out and I think I held myself back too much but for next time I don't want to take that, flip it, and then go out too hard. I will have to simulate the 2*20's riding in ErgMode until we can get the video. But I think it makes sense to do those to figure out where I am and to work on my threshold power as well.

This is all very helpful - I know I'm a newbie, but it's good for me to figure out how to focus my training - just riding is important, but so is riding smart.

:)

Hi Michael - the HOP sounds good - sounds hard - I will take a look for it as having something else to get a good workout from is always a good thing. It will probably kick my ass though, all the more reason to do it ;)