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Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!?
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I was going to post this in the regular thread, but was afraid I'd get flamed for who knows what, so I will come to the nice womens for some help!

I think I may be officially overtrained, or officially broken down, or whatever you want to call it. I'm sitting here looking back over the past 3.5 years and am realizing I haven't really taken any real time off. When I first think about it though, I've never trained at a high volume, so I wouldn't think I'd have any issues.

Quick (or not so quick) history:
Early 2005: Houston/Austin marathons
Spring 2005: work sucked, barely worked out, could not run 3 miles in mid-May, swore I'd never lose that base again
Summer 05: began marathon training again, sprint tris through the summer
Dec 05: Sunmart 50k
Jan 06: Houston Marathon
May 06: Gulf Coast 1/2 Ironman
Summer 06: various sprints
Oct 06: Ironstar 1/2 Ironman
Dec 06: Sunmart 50k
Jan 07: Houston Marathon
Feb 07: Austin 1/2 Marathon
Apr 07: IMAZ
May-Sept 07: lots of shorter races
Oct 07: Chicago Marathon, Ironstar 1/2 Marathon
Dec 07: Sunmart 50k
Jan 08: Houston Marathon
Feb 08: Austin 1/2 Marathon
Apr 08: IMAZ
May 08: Gulf Coat 1/2 Ironman
Jun-Jul 08: sprint tris
Aug 08: Barb's Race 1/2 Ironman (I really didn't so much bike/swim train for this one...last minute excuse for wine country vacation)
Oct 08: St. George Marathon

Houston 08 was my "breakthrough" marathon, lowering my PR from 5:12 to 4:30. I PR'd in 95% of the races I did from Sept 07-Jul 08. I was training to do a 4:15 at St. George this fall and trained more for that marathon than any of my previous ones, but still with mileage averaging 35-40 miles a week, nothing huge. I also pretty much dropped all swimming and biking after Barb's race in August. St. George didn't go as well as I was hoping (4:28) and I never felt completely rested with my taper heading into the race.

It has now been a month since the race and I have run/walked 40 total miles since then. I've been having some awful heart rate days where it is running over 190 for what is supposed to be a very easy run. I hit 197 on an 8 mile run weekend before last where I averaged over 11:00 min/mile pace (last 3 miles were just under 10:00 pace). I think my resting HR has been running high, but I had not been actively measuring it before all of this, unfortunately.

I've had high HR issues since I started all of this, but it has been even more exaggerated in the past few months. I was diagnosed with asthma in August and am now on symbacort and some allergy meds. I don't think the meds are solely responsible for the increased HR though because my HR was high before going on the meds. (went to the cardiologist on the recommendation my asthma dr. and my ekg and stress test all came back normal even though the lady stopped my stress test when my hr was 196 saying that my max should be 193 (220-my age)...I wasn't too happy with her, and I was barely breaking a sweat at that point, but that is a different story).

I guess my overall question is what to do from here. I'm signed up to do the 50k again in December and the marathon in January. I can let the 50k go (after many tears...this is really really hard for me to accept at this point), but I really, really don't want to have to let the marathon go to. My bestfriend of 26 years is coming from CA to run her first marathon and we have been planning to run it together (if I can even keep up...she's proving to be quite the runner). After that, I'm signed up for CDA and FL next year. Obviously I need to figure out what is going on with my body now, not in 6 months when it is too late, but I just don't know what to do. Sit on my butt for a month and do absolutely nothing? Limit all my runs to 3-6 miles and try to stay below x heart rate? Drop running for a bit and go back to biking and swimming and add in some yoga, pilates, etc?

I have been "on" for so long now and had the best year ever from about Sept 07 through summer 08. I had a 42 minute marathon PR, 25 minute 1/2 PR, 4 minute 5k PR, 5 minute 10k pr, 50 minute IM pr, 15 minute HIM pr...well, you get the idea. But I feel like it is all gone now. I tried to run a 5k two weeks after the St. George marathon and literally ran 5 minutes slower than my PR and that was absolutely all I had that day (for comparison I ran a 1:57 half marathon two weeks after the Houston marathon in January...my pace for the half was faster than my pace for that awful 5k a few weeks ago).

Sorry this is so long, but I'm having a very hard time trying to figure out what I should do from here. "Rest" doesn't tell me enough. How much rest, how much activity, for how long, and how will I know that I might be out of the woods?

Thanks ahead of time for anyone who may have any insight!

_________________________________________
Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a coach or super qualified to give specific info, but if I was going through what you are going through, I'd be done running for at least a month - 6 weeks. I'd take 2 weeks off completely - no running, biking, swimming, hiking, (maybe yoga or pilates 1-2 times a week for stretching). Be lazy. Then I'd start swimming and biking again (no running yet) - very easy, max of 4 days a week (2 swim, 2 bike) maybe throw in a few walks around the block but again, not keep track of any mileage. If your body needs a break, give it a break. Gradually work walking/running back in between 4-6 weeks. The easy biking and swimming will be "active rest". Being overtrained sucks - it hurts your body and your mind. Sometimes you just have to give up some things, shed some tears and look for the next thing. I've hit the overtrained threshold a few times, and it's hard to back away, but looking back, taking a break was the best thing. And realizing your hitting that threshold now instead of 6 months from now just might keep you from injury or illness.

.

**********************
Harry: "I expected the Rocky Mountains to be a little rockier than this."
Loyd: "I was thinking the same thing. That John Denver's full of shit, man."
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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Did you get your Dr to send you for some blood work?
I was having really similar issues (hr through the roof trying to do anything, felt like I couldn't breathe ...) this summer after I got food poisoning in Texas and then went up and down from Boulder a couple times. Turned out I was way low on iron. Fortunately, an easy fix :)
I've also read about people having issues with electrolytes and so forth with similar results.
Best of luck getting some answers.

You did just run a PR marathon a month ago, though, so don't be too hard on yourself. Love your body, eat well, do what feels good ...

Miranda
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [Miranda] [ In reply to ]
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The cardiologist did a complete blood workup and said everything was fine. I am glad to hear there are no apparent health issues, but it almost makes it more frustrating to try to figure out what is up!

_________________________________________
Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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I plan on reading Gordo's stuff today but before I do I thought I'd share my experiences as well.

Since 2002 I've been setting goals for myself that push me every single time.

2001 - First half marathon ever in Nov. - only my second race ever
2002 - A couple more halfs, Portland Marthon in Oct.
2003 - Gained a lot of weight so took that year off
2003 - First Half Ironman, various races and a marathon
2004 - Second Half Ironman, marathon and lots of smaller races
2005 - Another marathon, Ironman Lake Placid, another Half Iron, another Half Marthon
2006 - Half Ironman, Ironman Canada, 50k, 50 mile, 12 hour race and almost weekly short races for the season
2007 - Marathon in Feb, 50k, Half Ironman
2008 - Ironman CdA, marathon then nothing

In 2007 I ran out of steam, did a half Iron in July after putting on an extra 10 lbs in the spring, put on another 10lbs in the next two months then got on a weight loss program. Lost those two pounds then hit it hard for a marathon in Feb this year and IM CdA. Loved the training, had a great time, felt strong. Since CdA I haven't done squat. No races exept two 10ks that took over an hour each because a friend and I used them as an opportunity to chat and get a new t-shirt. Other than that, I've been on my bike once for 30 minutes on the trainer, swam a little more regularley because I have a friend that goes with me and was doing pretty well with my running, meaning 2x/week but for the last 3+ weeks, nothing except a weekend run. Work has gotten in the way but ultimately I haven't been motivated to find the time. If I wanted to I could have fit in 30 minutes on the treadmill but nada.

I don't think it is an issue with iron levels with me. I just think I'm burnt out. I have plans for some great stuff next year but I've already bailed out of a Marathon over Thanksgiving and my big goal race next April is in jepordy. Running is always what I've loved to do but I can't even do that.

This is meant as a way to let you know you aren't alone. Sometimes you need to let stuff go for better long term health. Give up the 50k, IMO. It will leave you with energy for the marathon. Since the marathon will be a shared experience with a friend, it will change your perspective and become something fun more than an obligation. Focus on that.

Ultimately I think I'll come out the other side of this as a better runner and a more focused athlete who is able to keep things in better perspective.

I hope I've helped. Reach out to me anytime if you need someone to tell you it's OK to let races go. :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
Last edited by: jenhs: Nov 6, 08 10:19
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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I'm pulling this all from an undergrad thesis a friend of mine wrote:

The most basic description of overtraining syndrome is the "long term imbalance of physical training and recovery."

Common symptoms - decreased performance, inability to train at a high level of intensity, chronic fatigue, muscle soreness that won't go away, changes in mood (particularly irritability), infection/illness. Lack of interest in usually pleasurable activities, lack of interest in training or lack of desire to compete. Low libido. Extreme fatigue but trouble sleeping.

Sympathetic vs Parasympathetic overtraining:
-Sympathetic form is when body should be in rest but is instead hyperexcitable, restless.
-Parasympathetic: more common - increased vagal activity during exercise (to an abnormal level) - this is the fatigue during workouts and recovery, change in sleeping patterns, poor performance, depressed immune function, chronic systemic inflammatory problems


has a lot to do with cortisol levels, being too high


--- looking at that: do you have any other symptoms aside from the really high HR at an easy pace while running? Am just asking.

I would say: take 10 days of downtime. I got forced into doing that this exact time last year, was AMAZING to me how much I perked up by even the 3rd day. Downtime means mostly time off, can do short (20 min) workouts for sanity's sake, nothing difficult though.

Hope that helps.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.competitorsocal.com/...-and-prevention.html

hat tip to FabJen for that article :-)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Sleep has been an issue for at least the past 1.5 years, so it is hard to say if that is new, but for now yes, I am not sleeping very well and I'm pretty tired. I have also lost a few lbs, oddly lbs I tried like no other to get off for 4 months before St. George and they didn't budge and now they have come off without me really trying.

I am not sure I could go run an 8 minute mile right now if my life depended on it, so definitely have an impaired ability to workout at more intense paces.

I will give the 10 day thing a go. I took 7 completely off after St. George, then did a 3 mile walk that Saturday, then a 2 mile run/walk the following Monday and Tuesday. I guess looking at that, I would say that was 10 days right there, but maybe it was too close to the race to experience the full benefit? Maybe I needed longer that time around?

It just stinks that there aren't any hard and fast answers. It also sucks realizing I am not invincible and that I cannot continue to race like I was and expect to be trashing PR's left and right.

_________________________________________
Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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There are not hard and fast answers because everyone's body is different, I don't know how long the St. George race was (marathon? HIM?) but recovery time for a marathon can be 6 wks or so before all the cellular damage is repaired.

You CAN'T expect a PR every race. I'll use swimming as an example: you drop time the first couple meets of the season, then mid season your race times should slow down because you are putting in a lot of yards and are just tired from it. Then you taper, absorb that, and swim out of your mind fast.

Marathon training is different from competitive swimming of course but do you get what I mean?

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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St. George was a marathon - and a very hard day for me. I never felt rested and ready to race during my taper for that race, so I think the issues were building before then.

If I hadn't popped off 3 PR's (2 1/2 marathons and a 5k) in the 5 weeks after my marathon in January, I might not be expecting as much this time around!

I just came in from another bad run. 3 miles, avg page 10:40 and hit 194 HR and called it quits.

_________________________________________
Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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It is hard to tell definitively from the information you communicated, but my clinical interpretation (diagnosis by internet) is that you are overtrained, or rather under rested. I'm not sure that it is a function of too much training volume (a la Claus) but rather your body not fully recovering before you induce a "peak" by tapering and racing. I've been training for 10 years know and make an effort to clearly delineate between seasons by taking 30 - 45 days off. I also listen to my mind and body every day. I've never trained a day in the past 5 years where I was not mentally engaged. If my mind or body was telling me "don't do it" I didn't. That takes discipline in and of itself. I think if you actually raced less and trained in cycles (a la 6 weeks prep base, 6 weeks base, 3 week build, 1 week peak, 2 week taper) you would see better result and improve your ability to recover. Unfortunately, once you are in the abyss, you have to shut it down, feed the beast, sleep and wait until your body says "this sucks, I'm fat, let's run". In the interim hit the yoga, piliates, movies, happy hour, etc.
Last edited by: centermiddy: Nov 7, 08 8:42
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [centermiddy] [ In reply to ]
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that was a really good post.

Define for me "mentally engaged." Like... yesterday I was wicked tired and did not really want to go swim (I wanted to nap). I swam. After 4k yds or so I woke right up and then had the best workout I've had for awhile... I was engaged, then. But can you elaborate on what makes you decide to train or not on a given day?

love from, another one who needs a couple more naps and cookies right now

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I remember a day I was not "mentally engaged". I just didn't feel like doing the 100 mile bike ride, but sucked it up and started anyways, about 8 miles in, I was standing by the side of the road crying. Turned my ass around and went home. Did the ride the next day after a long day of napping, reading, napping, eating, eating, napping and long nights sleep. Woke up ready to rumble the next day. I should have listened to myself instead of trying to push what I knew wasn't going to happen.

**********************
Harry: "I expected the Rocky Mountains to be a little rockier than this."
Loyd: "I was thinking the same thing. That John Denver's full of shit, man."
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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in '08 I see two marathons and an IM, plus several half-IMs and other races. All of these were done at high effort and PR or near-PR times, too. Even the elites don't race more than two marathons a year.
Ten days off isn't going to do it.. unless of course you are tigerchik's age ;-)

you need a decent break I think. Tell your friend you won't be able to race the marathon with her, but can do it as a fun run..

A good overview is here:
http://www.physsportsmed.com/...1/05_01/uusitalo.htm

There is no good physiological diagnostic for the condition - resting heart rate is an indicator, as is the variability between resting and standing HRs, but neither of these is diagnostic. The true diagnostic is a complex of symptoms which are not easily quantifiable.

Check out slowman's take on the subject too,
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...rn/overtraining.html

Joe Friel had an article on this which has disappeared, used to be at
http://www.ultrafit.com/...her/Overtraining.doc
He's funny,
"To accomplish this amazing feat you had to do too much training with too little rest, too
much anaerobic training with too little aerobic and strength base, eat inadequately, try to
train normally despite excessive psychological stress, or some combination of several of
these. Less than one-tenth of one percent of the general population is capable of attaining
such a feat. You’re an exceptional person to have done it. Congratulations!"

On the several occasions that I've achieved overtraining: falling back to hiking/swimming or biking gently/weight work/yoga, with 3-4 sessions a week, seems to maintain some fitness while still allowing for recovery.
Last edited by: doug in co: Nov 7, 08 8:58
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [KWTriGrl] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the great info - I really do appreciate it.

It is just frustrating that there is no definite "diagnosis" like a torn ACL, tendonitis, etc.

My biggest issue right now is that my head is still in it, but my body just isn't responding. I wish it were the other way around and that I didn't care for a while.

_________________________________________
Kathleen
http://kcwoodhead.blogspot.com/
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Re: Overtrained/Active Rest/Help!? [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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When people talk about limiters in multisport, they rarely talk about their mind or mental their mental execution. However, where the mind is willing, the body will go, within certain tolerances. Within a training hierarchy every workout should have a purpose and you should train to that purpose. When you train without purpose, you are merely exercising, not training. Junk miles may help you keep weight off and your mind stimulated, but they have little impact in making you faster. Lastly, age groupers tend to eschew rest for frequency, feeling that they are better off "doing something". That way when they get to Ironman they can say, I've done the training, I will survive. The problem is, they are smoked and end up just trying to hang on.

Tying this all together, you are better off skipping a workout than executing a poor workout. People talk about "key" workouts in their training structure. These are the workouts, if executed properly, will result in you getting faster and more quickly. To get the value out of these workouts you have to be mentally focused on execution. If you cannot mentally engage yourself in the task at hand, you are better off not doing it because you will only be serving to run yourself down.
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