http://policingequity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/CPE_SoJ_Race-Arrests-UoF_2016-07-08-1130.pdf
Maybe read and discuss? Or call each other assholes and hate anyone who disagrees with us?
One of those two.
I just found this study. I haven’t read through it and though everyone here knows I’m a super genius (tongue and cheek), reading stuff like this is not one of my super powers.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0141854
Also, here’s a copy of what FF just posted WITH HYPERLINK:
http://policingequity.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/CPE_SoJ_Race-Arrests-UoF_2016-07-08-1130.pdf
I’ve not read that one, either.
Well, according to that, whites are more likely to be killed when being arrested than blacks are.
Blacks are more likely to have force used against them when being arrested, the difference being in the categories of less lethal/taser, pepper spray, and hands/body.
Whites are more likely than blacks to be subject to force when being arrested for violent crimes.
Agreed?
Well, according to that, whites are more likely to be killed when being arrested than blacks are.
Blacks are more likely to have force used against them when being arrested, the difference being in the categories of less lethal/taser, pepper spray, and hands/body.
Whites are more likely than blacks to be subject to force when being arrested for violent crimes.
Agreed?
It took me a couple hours to read over that report thoroughly. I went through it twice to really understand how they compiled and reported the data. The conclusions reached after several PhD’s carefully disseminated years of data are a direct contradiction to your assertion that blacks experience more law enforcement violence because they break the law more and are arrested more. And yet twelve minutes after I posted the link, you cite three figures, two of which seem to support your overall assertion to those who did not read the entire paper.
And people call me intellectually dishonest and crazy. And you have the nerve on another thread to ask me if I actually read it??? It couldnt be any clearer if the conclusion stated “Sorry Vitus979, your assertion is incorrect”.
So yes, I agree that you successfully paraphrased things out of context to support your bogus assertion. I also agree with this, “That racially disparate crime rate is an insufficient explanation of racially disparate use of force rates for this sample of police departments. Given that these departments range widely in size and represent urban cities, suburban counties, and transportation police in geographically diverse jurisdictions, the results are suggestive that these findings may generalize beyond the sample.”
Agreed?
Well, according to that, whites are more likely to be killed when being arrested than blacks are.
Blacks are more likely to have force used against them when being arrested, the difference being in the categories of less lethal/taser, pepper spray, and hands/body.
Whites are more likely than blacks to be subject to force when being arrested for violent crimes.
Agreed?
It took me a couple hours to read over that report thoroughly. I went through it twice to really understand how they compiled and reported the data. The conclusions reached after several PhD’s carefully disseminated years of data are a direct contradiction to your assertion that blacks experience more law enforcement violence because they break the law more and are arrested more. And yet twelve minutes after I posted the link, you cite three figures, two of which seem to support your overall assertion to those who did not read the entire paper.
And people call me intellectually dishonest and crazy. And you have the nerve on another thread to ask me if I actually read it??? It couldnt be any clearer if the conclusion stated “Sorry Vitus979, your assertion is incorrect”.
So yes, I agree that you successfully paraphrased things out of context to support your bogus assertion. I also agree with this, “That racially disparate crime rate is an insufficient explanation of racially disparate use of force rates for this sample of police departments. Given that these departments range widely in size and represent urban cities, suburban counties, and transportation police in geographically diverse jurisdictions, the results are suggestive that these findings may generalize beyond the sample.”
Agreed?
First…I read the whole paper. You are making this report sound far more “scientific” than even the report writers are claiming, who went to great lengths to explain why studying this sort of thing is very difficult.
Second, you didn’t respond the Vitus’ comment that the report found that whites were actually more likely to have lethal force used against them, which undercuts much of what you’ve been saying. Care to comment on that?
The conclusions reached after several PhD’s carefully disseminated years of data are a direct contradiction to your assertion that blacks experience more law enforcement violence because they break the law more and are arrested more.
Well, no it isn’t. On almost any level.
Your claim is that the BLM movement exists because there is evidence that police and the rest of society treat black lives as if they don’t matter- police kill blacks so often simply because of the color of their skin, and the rest of us don’t care, because we just don’t care about black people. And the police do kill more blacks than whites, just looking at it proportionally by race. But that disparity is due *entirely *to the increased crime committed by blacks. You can tell, because blacks are killed less often than whites when being arrested.
Blacks are also less likely to be subject to force when being arrested for a violent crime. They are more likely to be subject to force when being subject to arrest for overall crimes.
And yeah, they do experience more police force because they break the law more and are arrested more. The difference in the rates of force per arrest in any direction are not *that *dramatic.
Not only that, there is *nothing *in the study that shows that the force meted out by police to any racial group is unjustified or unnecessary.
BLM is a fraud. If they were concerned with black lives, they’d be working hard on reducing black crime- first because it’s black crime that takes so many more black lives directly, and second because if there was a more sane level of crime in their community, they wouldn’t be subject to so much police force.
Why are you still engaged with this dipshit? His entire world view is based on the premise that you are a racist purely based on the color of your skin. And he doesn’t see the inherent contradiction in holding that view.
The “Hide User’s Posts” button is your friend.
At this point, I’m trying to decide if he’s a genuine loon, or the most brilliant troll any of us have ever seen.
At this point, I’m trying to decide if he’s a genuine loon, or the most brilliant troll any of us have ever seen.
That is an excellent hypothesis. It’s hard for me to imagine someone who actually believes the stuff he does. If he really does, bless his heart, I truly believe he thinks he’s doing the right thing, but it is impossible for him to imagine that his attempts to win people to his viewpoint is rendered impossible just due to the way he treats people who disagree with him.
bless his heart, I truly believe he thinks he’s doing the right thing,
If he’s genuine, I actually have a really hard time respecting his view at all. Not so much because it’s completely wrong, although it is. Lots of people have uncritically bought into that narrative, which is weird, but that’s the way it is. And not so much because he’s impervious to reason, either. Again, he’s not alone there.
But what I find really contemptible about his position is that he has no interest- he hasn’t even expressed any interest- in actually solving anything. He thinks it’s somehow noble and morally superior to accept his white guilt voluntarily, and charge the rest of us with racism, and that’s his big contribution. That’s just a sick worldview.** **He thinks “just listening” is a solution, regardless of the truth or accuracy of what he’s listening to, and doesn’t feel the need to either propose or argue for or actually implement anything in the real world to fix the problem. That’s just a sick worldview.
Well, according to that, whites are more likely to be killed when being arrested than blacks are.
Blacks are more likely to have force used against them when being arrested, the difference being in the categories of less lethal/taser, pepper spray, and hands/body.
Whites are more likely than blacks to be subject to force when being arrested for violent crimes.
Agreed?
It took me a couple hours to read over that report thoroughly. I went through it twice to really understand how they compiled and reported the data. The conclusions reached after several PhD’s carefully disseminated years of data are a direct contradiction to your assertion that blacks experience more law enforcement violence because they break the law more and are arrested more. And yet twelve minutes after I posted the link, you cite three figures, two of which seem to support your overall assertion to those who did not read the entire paper.
And people call me intellectually dishonest and crazy. And you have the nerve on another thread to ask me if I actually read it??? It couldnt be any clearer if the conclusion stated “Sorry Vitus979, your assertion is incorrect”.
So yes, I agree that you successfully paraphrased things out of context to support your bogus assertion. I also agree with this, “That racially disparate crime rate is an insufficient explanation of racially disparate use of force rates for this sample of police departments. Given that these departments range widely in size and represent urban cities, suburban counties, and transportation police in geographically diverse jurisdictions, the results are suggestive that these findings may generalize beyond the sample.”
Agreed?
First…I read the whole paper. You are making this report sound far more “scientific” than even the report writers are claiming, who went to great lengths to explain why studying this sort of thing is very difficult.
Second, you didn’t respond the Vitus’ comment that the report found that whites were actually more likely to have lethal force used against them, which undercuts much of what you’ve been saying. Care to comment on that?
First, it is a scientific paper, with all the limitations of such. And of course this stuff is especially hard to study and requires more examination. Nobody has claimed otherwise. I am not trying to make it sound like anything. I described what they did. Please give me an example of where I tried to make it sound more scientific than it actually is. All scientific papers come with lengthy disclaimers as to the validity of the conclusions as well as the need for further study.
Second, thanks for looking out for Vitus. According to Figure 2 in the study, indeed whites are more likely to have lethal force used against them. Sorta. One needs to understand p values and statistical significance to understand that chart completely.
In a nutshell, the lethal, canine and weapon categories are so small as to necessarily have large p values and be statistically far less significant. When we look at the columns for hands and body, oc spray, and less lethal/taser, we see much larger samples sizes and correspondingly lower p values and far greater statistical significance.
All of which corresponds directly to the primary and most significant finding of the study, which is to refute the premise that blacks experience more frequent and more severe use of force by law enforcement because they break the law more.
Some of those charts and some of those findings are not showing you what you think they are at first glance. Take the time to understand the data collection, statistical signifance, p values and the authors conclusions and we can discuss further.
Why are you still engaged with this dipshit? His entire world view is based on the premise that you are a racist purely based on the color of your skin. And he doesn’t see the inherent contradiction in holding that view.
The “Hide User’s Posts” button is your friend.
Blocking me and then following me around to throw personal insults after the fact is a little disturbing.
Please tell slowguy I am really sorry I hurt his feelings so much.
At this point, I’m trying to decide if he’s a genuine loon, or the most brilliant troll any of us have ever seen.
That is an excellent hypothesis. It’s hard for me to imagine someone who actually believes the stuff he does. If he really does, bless his heart, I truly believe he thinks he’s doing the right thing, but it is impossible for him to imagine that his attempts to win people to his viewpoint is rendered impossible just due to the way he treats people who disagree with him.
Plenty of people believe “the stuff I do”. If you would like to be specific about any of that stuff, I would be happy to continue the conversation, as I have been trying to do in this thread. As it stands now, I take a few minutes to write out a well reasoned, even tempered, non attacking post, and when I post it, I find several posts calling me names, ridiculing me, and questioning the way I treat people who disagree with me??
Do you understand the irony of that? I am not making fun of you, calling you names or in any way attacking you. You are not participating in the conversation beyond making fun of me and then questioning how* I* treat people who disagree??
Can we agree that police don’t kill blacks more often than whites?
At this point, I’m trying to decide if he’s a genuine loon, or the most brilliant troll any of us have ever seen.
That is an excellent hypothesis. It’s hard for me to imagine someone who actually believes the stuff he does. If he really does, bless his heart, I truly believe he thinks he’s doing the right thing, but it is impossible for him to imagine that his attempts to win people to his viewpoint is rendered impossible just due to the way he treats people who disagree with him.
Plenty of people believe “the stuff I do”. If you would like to be specific about any of that stuff, I would be happy to continue the conversation, as I have been trying to do in this thread. As it stands now, I take a few minutes to write out a well reasoned, even tempered, non attacking post, and when I post it, I find several posts calling me names, ridiculing me, and questioning the way I treat people who disagree with me??
Do you understand the irony of that? I am not making fun of you, calling you names or in any way attacking you. You are not participating in the conversation beyond making fun of me and then questioning how* I* treat people who disagree??
All right…I will stipulate you haven’t done the things I accused of in this thread. However, you typical MO is that you usually denigrate anyone who disagrees with you on the whole “white privilege” thing, or the fact that you have more than once said that every white person is an oppressor. Hard for me to get past those accusations, even if you haven’t mentioned them in a specific thread. That is what I was getting at. If you truly want to have a rational dialogue, you need to back off those accusations. Otherwise, most of us are going to assume you are just nuts.
At this point, I’m trying to decide if he’s a genuine loon, or the most brilliant troll any of us have ever seen.
That is an excellent hypothesis. It’s hard for me to imagine someone who actually believes the stuff he does. If he really does, bless his heart, I truly believe he thinks he’s doing the right thing, but it is impossible for him to imagine that his attempts to win people to his viewpoint is rendered impossible just due to the way he treats people who disagree with him.
Plenty of people believe “the stuff I do”. If you would like to be specific about any of that stuff, I would be happy to continue the conversation, as I have been trying to do in this thread. As it stands now, I take a few minutes to write out a well reasoned, even tempered, non attacking post, and when I post it, I find several posts calling me names, ridiculing me, and questioning the way I treat people who disagree with me??
Do you understand the irony of that? I am not making fun of you, calling you names or in any way attacking you. You are not participating in the conversation beyond making fun of me and then questioning how* I* treat people who disagree??
All right…I will stipulate you haven’t done the things I accused of in this thread. However, you typical MO is that you usually denigrate anyone who disagrees with you on the whole “white privilege” thing, or the fact that you have more than once said that every white person is an oppressor. Hard for me to get past those accusations, even if you haven’t mentioned them in a specific thread. That is what I was getting at. If you truly want to have a rational dialogue, you need to back off those accusations. Otherwise, most of us are going to assume you are just nuts.
It almost sounds like he’s asking you to forgive the sins of the past, and start anew, with a fresh dialogue about how people might be able to get along with each other. Nah,…if you proposed that conversation regarding race, he’d call you a racist.
bless his heart, I truly believe he thinks he’s doing the right thing,
If he’s genuine, I actually have a really hard time respecting his view at all. Not so much because it’s completely wrong, although it is. Lots of people have uncritically bought into that narrative, which is weird, but that’s the way it is. And not so much because he’s impervious to reason, either. Again, he’s not alone there.
But what I find really contemptible about his position is that he has no interest- he hasn’t even expressed any interest- in actually solving anything. He thinks it’s somehow noble and morally superior to accept his white guilt voluntarily, and charge the rest of us with racism, and that’s his big contribution. That’s just a sick worldview.** **He thinks “just listening” is a solution, regardless of the truth or accuracy of what he’s listening to, and doesn’t feel the need to either propose or argue for or actually implement anything in the real world to fix the problem. That’s just a sick worldview.
Vitus, this thread was for you. Specifically your assertion that blacks experience law enforcement violence proportional to their lawlessness. The linked study is the largest one ever completed on specifically that topic As much as any single study can, it directly refutes your assertion.
As for the rest of your post, you would be embarassed if you knew what me and my family do on a daily basis to solve these problems were are ‘discussing’. You find it contempible that I havent expressed an interest in a Lavendar Room discussion to solving anything? Contempible? You are drowning in angry hyperbole right now.
I dont charge you with racism, I recognize that we all hold implicit bias and race is a very big one and a very big problem at the moment. When a person begins to see that privilege is the air they breathe, and the flip side of that privilege is oppression, sure there might be some guilt involved. Personally I feel some guilt from time to time, but I have a very deep desire to repair the rift, and as I move through my daily life, I take steps to do just that. As does my wife and my two children.
Can we agree that police don’t kill blacks more often than whites?
statistics are tough - do you mean ‘often’ or ‘rate’ or what do you mean?
http://www.theguardian.com/...killings-us-database
BTW, the BLM movement by their own admission has a limited ‘mission statement’ - but that does not make them a ‘fraud’ - - - and there reason to exist is valid
It’s like suggesting that because the Leukemia Lymphoma Society only address blood cancers they are a fraud because they do not address other more common kinds of cancer.
bless his heart, I truly believe he thinks he’s doing the right thing,
If he’s genuine, I actually have a really hard time respecting his view at all. Not so much because it’s completely wrong, although it is. Lots of people have uncritically bought into that narrative, which is weird, but that’s the way it is. And not so much because he’s impervious to reason, either. Again, he’s not alone there.
But what I find really contemptible about his position is that he has no interest- he hasn’t even expressed any interest- in actually solving anything. He thinks it’s somehow noble and morally superior to accept his white guilt voluntarily, and charge the rest of us with racism, and that’s his big contribution. That’s just a sick worldview.** **He thinks “just listening” is a solution, regardless of the truth or accuracy of what he’s listening to, and doesn’t feel the need to either propose or argue for or actually implement anything in the real world to fix the problem. That’s just a sick worldview.
Vitus, this thread was for you. Specifically your assertion that blacks experience law enforcement violence proportional to their lawlessness. The linked study is the largest one ever completed on specifically that topic As much as any single study can, it directly refutes your assertion.
As for the rest of your post, you would be embarassed if you knew what me and my family do on a daily basis to solve these problems were are ‘discussing’. You find it contempible that I havent expressed an interest in a Lavendar Room discussion to solving anything? Contempible? You are drowning in angry hyperbole right now.
I dont charge you with racism, I recognize that we all hold implicit bias and race is a very big one and a very big problem at the moment. When a person begins to see that privilege is the air they breathe, and the flip side of that privilege is oppression, sure there might be some guilt involved. Personally I feel some guilt from time to time, but I have a very deep desire to repair the rift, and as I move through my daily life, I take steps to do just that. As does my wife and my two children.
Aaaaannnnndddd…forget what I said earlier. If you are convinced that every single white person, just by the color of their skin, is an oppressor, than you are nuts.
I was trying to keep it simple and straightforward, man.
Yeah, I mean “rate,” obviously. Figured this thread had enough context.
BTW, the BLM movement by their own admission has a limited ‘mission statement’ - but that does not make them a ‘fraud’ - - - and there reason to exist is valid
BLM’s mission is rather expansive, actually. But yeah, they’re a fraud, based on a fraud, and no, their mission is not valid. The police are not the problem.