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Sexism in the Navy
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"Sailors ranked female crew and the sex acts they wanted to perform with them, Navy report says"

http://www.msn.com/...r-AABARFL?ocid=ientp

Is it a peculiar issue to a submarine crew? I tend to think so, being in one (not as a crew member).
waiting on Slowguy to chime in, probably old news to you.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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I think this is a particular issue anytime young men and women interact. Similar story a few years ago with the Harvard soccer teams. But for a submarine crew, this is a far more critical issue.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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One would hope that people would not behave this way. However it seems they do and the question is how far do you push the equality issue if it is bound to interfere with operational effectiveness. Submarines are very tight quarters where people literally bunk inches away from each other.

We live in a very schizophrenic society. We want no sexual harassment in the workplace but one just has to turn on the tv or computer and watch people have at it at the drop of a hat. Often without any notion of proper consent. We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.

Perhaps the real revolutionaries are those that keep their promises.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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This kind of stuff has been going on as long as women have been assigned to Navy ships. I saw it start when the women were assigned to the submarine and destroyer tenders, as well as shore establishments. It increased as women were assigned to surface combatants, so it is not surprising to see it on submarines and smaller warships.

Trying to mix up young women and men and expect them to not, well, mix it up, is to ignore human behaviors that go back beyond recorded time.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
I think this is a particular issue anytime young men and women interact. Similar story a few years ago with the Harvard soccer teams. But for a submarine crew, this is a far more critical issue.

Its not just young men. Have you never been around a group of women talking about a particular man or group of men? The locker room talk is just as bad.

I will say, that for some reason, men always seem to be stupid enough to write these thoughts down and get busted for them.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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Haven't young men been doing this since they discovered the opposite sex?

For fucks sake, Facebook started as a "Hot or Not" type app, yet is lauded as a major player in social media now. Zuckerberg just figured out how to grow it better and became a billionaire out of doing something very similar these sailors did.

--------------------------
Runners Roost Race Team
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.

I work for a global company with over 100k employees. We have regular anti-harassment training to prevent this kind of thing (among other things that should not occur in the workplace). Does the US Navy not provide such training?
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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I am surprised this is a story in 2019. Stuff like this has been going on since creation;


"In the Alpha Betha of Ben Sira (Alphabetum Siracidis, or Sepher Ben Sira), an anonymous collection of midrashic proverbs probably compiled in the 11th century C.E., it is explained more explicitly that the conflict arose because Adam, as a way of asserting his authority over Lilith, insisted that she lie beneath him during sexual intercourse (23 A-B). Lilith, however, considering herself to be Adam's equal, refused, and after pronouncing the Ineffable Name (i.e. the magic name of God) flew off into the air."

There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
~ John Adams, Letter to Jonathan Jackson (October 2, 1780).
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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How disappointing. Grown men making lists like this is disgraceful.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
I think this is a particular issue anytime young men and women interact. Similar story a few years ago with the Harvard soccer teams. But for a submarine crew, this is a far more critical issue.[/quote]


and that what I am trying to understand. I understand, men, woman, sex. But is it more critical in a submarine environment?

"“Significant numbers of females became concerned for their safety,” he wrote, “and male members who learned of the list were equally repulsed,” the outlet reports."
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
len wrote:
We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.


I work for a global company with over 100k employees. We have regular anti-harassment training to prevent this kind of thing (among other things that should not occur in the workplace). Does the US Navy not provide such training?

And as a result, your company has never had a case of workplace harassment?

If that type of workplace training "worked," I would be out of a job.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
len wrote:
We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.


I work for a global company with over 100k employees. We have regular anti-harassment training to prevent this kind of thing (among other things that should not occur in the workplace). Does the US Navy not provide such training?


And as a result, your company has never had a case of workplace harassment?

If that type of workplace training "worked," I would be out of a job.

I was really asking about how much the Navy does. len had said the Navy does "very little" to give its members the tools to avoid this kind of thing. That surprised me. Of course you will always have cases, and my company does too, but the training we've had has no doubt reduced the number and seriousness of the cases we've seen.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
How disappointing. Grown men making lists like this is disgraceful.

Everyone seems to ignore the fact that it is on a submarine (in particular) and that why posted it. But go ahead everyone and explains to me about men, woman, sex. Its new to me....
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
len wrote:
We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.


I work for a global company with over 100k employees. We have regular anti-harassment training to prevent this kind of thing (among other things that should not occur in the workplace). Does the US Navy not provide such training?


And as a result, your company has never had a case of workplace harassment?

If that type of workplace training "worked," I would be out of a job.


I was really asking about how much the Navy does. len had said the Navy does "very little" to give its members the tools to avoid this kind of thing. That surprised me. Of course you will always have cases, and my company does too, but the training we've had has no doubt reduced the number and seriousness of the cases we've seen.

Well, if you follow the report, some of the Navy command chain are to blame too. Clearly not enough was done.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
len wrote:
We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.


I work for a global company with over 100k employees. We have regular anti-harassment training to prevent this kind of thing (among other things that should not occur in the workplace). Does the US Navy not provide such training?


And as a result, your company has never had a case of workplace harassment?

If that type of workplace training "worked," I would be out of a job.


I was really asking about how much the Navy does. len had said the Navy does "very little" to give its members the tools to avoid this kind of thing. That surprised me. Of course you will always have cases, and my company does too, but the training we've had has no doubt reduced the number and seriousness of the cases we've seen.

The armed forces are not the same as a civilian workplace. I doubt you have ever been concerned your office might rupture, flood with water, and sink to the bottom of the ocean. I also doubt your workplace is filled with 18-22 year olds who signed up for a job requiring them to risk their lives for their country. I'm not justifying or excusing the conduct. I'm saying they world they live in is very, very different than the world in which we live. The Navy does workplace training. All branches do. But the armed forces should not be compared to an office filled with cubicles. Again, it's not a justification of the conduct, just reality of the situation.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
The armed forces are not the same as a civilian workplace. I doubt you have ever been concerned your office might rupture, flood with water, and sink to the bottom of the ocean. I also doubt your workplace is filled with 18-22 year olds who signed up for a job requiring them to risk their lives for their country. I'm not justifying or excusing the conduct. I'm saying they world they live in is very, very different than the world in which we live. The Navy does workplace training. All branches do. But the armed forces should not be compared to an office filled with cubicles. Again, it's not a justification of the conduct, just reality of the situation.

This pretty much sums it up, but to my perspective ...

There are no need for women on submarines from a manning standpoint. Can they do the job? Sure. Do we need them to get the job done? No. It will just cause problems like this. I had enough things to worry about without shit like this. My wife had plenty to think about without shit like this. If you haven't done the job you can't begin to fathom the stress the crew is under at times. They don't need this distraction.

MMCS(SS). Retired. NEC 3366/76

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
len wrote:
We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.


I work for a global company with over 100k employees. We have regular anti-harassment training to prevent this kind of thing (among other things that should not occur in the workplace). Does the US Navy not provide such training?


And as a result, your company has never had a case of workplace harassment?

If that type of workplace training "worked," I would be out of a job.


I was really asking about how much the Navy does. len had said the Navy does "very little" to give its members the tools to avoid this kind of thing. That surprised me. Of course you will always have cases, and my company does too, but the training we've had has no doubt reduced the number and seriousness of the cases we've seen.

My "we" is society. By the time young men get to the Navy it is hard to change attitudes. I don't know what kind of training the Navy does for this kind of stuff. My impression was that submariners were specifically chosen for ability to get alone and work in close quarters etc. If you cannot get them to behave well maybe integrating submarine crews is a bad idea.

Last week I was in Newfoundland. Sitting in hotel bar. The Video gambling machine is in plain sight on one side and the atm on the other and the alcohol is right in the middle. Great set up for some guy who has a gambling problem who has to attend a seminar on preventing workplace harassment or whatever. It was quite fascinating to watch a thirty something year old guy have the beers brought to him as he repeatedly hit the button the millisecond the wheels stopped turning for the next hit. Punctuated by reloads from the atm of 200 dollars every 20 minutes or so. Gov't at its best.

Perhaps the real revolutionaries are those that keep their promises.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
len wrote:
We want to have people exercise restraint but we do very little to give them the tools to do so.


I work for a global company with over 100k employees. We have regular anti-harassment training to prevent this kind of thing (among other things that should not occur in the workplace). Does the US Navy not provide such training?


And as a result, your company has never had a case of workplace harassment?

If that type of workplace training "worked," I would be out of a job.


I was really asking about how much the Navy does. len had said the Navy does "very little" to give its members the tools to avoid this kind of thing. That surprised me. Of course you will always have cases, and my company does too, but the training we've had has no doubt reduced the number and seriousness of the cases we've seen.

The armed forces are not the same as a civilian workplace. I doubt you have ever been concerned your office might rupture, flood with water, and sink to the bottom of the ocean. I also doubt your workplace is filled with 18-22 year olds who signed up for a job requiring them to risk their lives for their country. I'm not justifying or excusing the conduct. I'm saying they world they live in is very, very different than the world in which we live. The Navy does workplace training. All branches do. But the armed forces should not be compared to an office filled with cubicles. Again, it's not a justification of the conduct, just reality of the situation.

I'm sure you're right, though my training has consisted of only 3 hours with an employment lawyer once every 4-5 years. In other words, not a lot of time, but done very effectively in small groups with a lot of discussion in the session. That may be less easy to do in the armed forces (small group sizes), but the actual time spent has been fairly limited.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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b4itwascold wrote:
Perseus wrote:
How disappointing. Grown men making lists like this is disgraceful.


Everyone seems to ignore the fact that it is on a submarine (in particular) and that why posted it. But go ahead everyone and explains to me about men, woman, sex. Its new to me....

It is a submarine. You are stuck with the two hundred or whatever people in a small area and you cannot get away. You specifically train to hide in the depths of the ocean evading people who are trying to kill you. Imagine if you had to go to work and stay there for months and had little contact with the outside world while operating a complex machine in a hostile environment.

Perhaps the real revolutionaries are those that keep their promises.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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b4itwascold wrote:
Perseus wrote:
How disappointing. Grown men making lists like this is disgraceful.


Everyone seems to ignore the fact that it is on a submarine (in particular) and that why posted it. But go ahead everyone and explains to me about men, woman, sex. Its new to me....

I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Simply put, I don't think it's appropriate, under any circumstances, for grown men to make lists of their co-workers and how they would like to have sex with them.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
torrey wrote:
I think this is a particular issue anytime young men and women interact. Similar story a few years ago with the Harvard soccer teams. But for a submarine crew, this is a far more critical issue.

Its not just young men. Have you never been around a group of women talking about a particular man or group of men? The locker room talk is just as bad.

I will say, that for some reason, men always seem to be stupid enough to write these thoughts down and get busted for them.

Four important rules to live by...
1. Don't write anything down
2. No pictures
3. No video
4. Deny, deny, deny
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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b4itwascold wrote:
Everyone seems to ignore the fact that it is on a submarine (in particular) and that why posted it. But go ahead everyone and explains to me about men, woman, sex. Its new to me....

Then what response are you looking for from your initial post? Please qualify your knowledge of life on a US Navy Submarine.

I spent 22 years in that little corner of the canoe club and retired in 2002. Mostly fast boats - 637's, 688's, - playing cat and mouse with Ivan. I'm a member of the Order of the Ditch, a Blue Nose, a Shell Back, and a Golden Dragon. I can answer any question you might have, assuming it isn't classified.

I also made Chief in 1990, before the "let's be nice" CPO initiation went into effect. I look at what is going on today (I still keep in touch with the community) and just shake my head at what has happen. The world I served in doesn't exist any longer. I personally think that is a very bad thing, but time will tell. In my time we did things much worse than what these kids did, and we were none the worse for it.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
b4itwascold wrote:
Perseus wrote:
How disappointing. Grown men making lists like this is disgraceful.


Everyone seems to ignore the fact that it is on a submarine (in particular) and that why posted it. But go ahead everyone and explains to me about men, woman, sex. Its new to me....


I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Simply put, I don't think it's appropriate, under any circumstances, for grown men to make lists of their co-workers and how they would like to have sex with them.

See Lens post above.
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [b4itwascold] [ In reply to ]
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We kept Submarines gender segregated for a whole lot of reasons. Opening billets to women because of stupidity is probably going to get more people killed in the dirt than the bubbleheads, but there will be plenty of pregnant women coming off submarines no doubt.

If you don't think women in the Service can't be just as predatory, you've never met many.

I legit saw a female Captain hook her claws into my best friend and spit him out inside of 8 months, she got married to him (her second servicemember husband) and two months later after he went to Career course hopped on a SFC who was married.

Rugby Media Dude-earfulofdirt.com

Hooker training for the Sport of Scrum-Halves [Triathlon]
Last edited by: TheStroBro: May 20, 19 10:05
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Re: Sexism in the Navy [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]
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no argument with you Sir. I should net made a bold statement saying "everyone".
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