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Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed
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I doubt this was unexpected, but the results are in and they will make the NRA very happy;


"A Florida investigative panel charged with studying the rampage that left 17 people dead at a Parkland high school last year has recommended arming teachers, reigniting debate over the controversial strategy that has drawn vigorous support from President Donald Trump."


The report recommends the Legislature approve a measure allowing teachers – who volunteer and undergo extensive background checks and training – to carry concealed guns in schools.


https://www.usatoday.com/...deputies/2470703002/

There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
~ John Adams, Letter to Jonathan Jackson (October 2, 1780).
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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I think they should hand out guns at the door. Everyone gets a gun. It’s like nukes, who’s gonna shoot the first round!

Stupid!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?



Background checks have value, but rarely do they delve deep enough to determine a persons real character. I know that when one of my friends joined a Govt. agency the background process took about 15 months and it included interviews with multiple in her life, including myself. Florida looks for felonies and sexual misconduct. You can read about the law here if it interests you;


http://www.fldoe.org/...ng-requirements.stml


As a parent I am torn. I realize the chances of a shooting happening are very small. But my kid's school already undergoes drills regularly in case a shooting does happen. If teachers were professionally trained I am not sure it would be a bad thing compared to hoping nothing would ever happen. You look at Parkland and wonder what the outcome would have been had those teachers been armed. 17 killed....

There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
~ John Adams, Letter to Jonathan Jackson (October 2, 1780).
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?

You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?

Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


I am not sure what you have read but I took this verbatim from the Commission Report on page 123;

"Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident."

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
~ John Adams, Letter to Jonathan Jackson (October 2, 1780).
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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jkca1 wrote:
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


I am not sure what you have read but I took this verbatim from the Commission Report on page 123;

"Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident."

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf


That is on page 104 (not page 123) and is quoted, verbatim, in my response, above. Recommending the expansion of a long-existing program (i.e. the Guardian Program) to include teachers with other school district employees is a far cry from recommending that teachers be armed. The newspaper knows this, but, it used wording that would elicit a visceral reaction.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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jkca1 wrote:
You look at Parkland and wonder what the outcome would have been had those teachers been armed. 17 killed....

Well let's say, for the sake of debate, that only 5 kids would have died at Parkland if some teachers were armed. At the same time, with far more guns in schools around the country, not necessarily under lock and key, let's say that through accidents and incidents involving those firearms, 20 students are killed. What say you now?

A few examples of what could go wrong (none which include students getting hold of the guns, which could happen more easily if the teachers have them in their bags):

https://www.nbcnews.com/...er-fires-gun-n856481

https://www.pbs.org/...res-gun-in-classroom

http://www.msnbc.com/...the-leg-while-school

https://www.nbcwashington.com/...chool-476676103.html
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!

Just out of curiosity, did the report address why every other industrialized country has a fraction of the number of kids murdered in school? Haven't they solved the problem already?
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
jkca1 wrote:
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


I am not sure what you have read but I took this verbatim from the Commission Report on page 123;

"Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident."

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf



That is on page 104 (not page 123) and is quoted, verbatim, in my response, above. Recommending the expansion of a long-existing program (i.e. the Guardian Program) to include teachers with other school district employees is a far cry from recommending that teachers be armed. The newspaper knows this, but, it used wording that would elicit a visceral reaction.

It seems to recommend that teachers be allowed to be armed if they volunteer for the Guardian Program and pass the necessary checks, no?
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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jkca1 wrote:
I doubt this was unexpected, but the results are in and they will make the NRA very happy;


"A Florida investigative panel charged with studying the rampage that left 17 people dead at a Parkland high school last year has recommended arming teachers, reigniting debate over the controversial strategy that has drawn vigorous support from President Donald Trump."


The report recommends the Legislature approve a measure allowing teachers – who volunteer and undergo extensive background checks and training – to carry concealed guns in schools.


https://www.usatoday.com/...deputies/2470703002/

Wait,

How do we know that the Parkland shooting even really happened?

I mean if Sandy Hook is fake, this one probably is too.

Fake news.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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jkca1 wrote:
As a parent I am torn. I realize the chances of a shooting happening are very small. But my kid's school already undergoes drills regularly in case a shooting does happen. If teachers were professionally trained I am not sure it would be a bad thing compared to hoping nothing would ever happen. You look at Parkland and wonder what the outcome would have been had those teachers been armed. 17 killed....

But how many more accidental shooting will there be with more guns in a school? What if a student gets hold of the gun? Will they even be effective? If they do draw their guns, how many children will they accidentally shoot (how many times have cops shot the wrong person and they will have more training than teachers)?

In order to be profecient with a gun, it takes lots of training and continual training. Let alone when you are going be clearing rooms by yourself, do we really think teachers (and other staff) will invest that sort of time? Most of these school shooting deaths happen withing minutes of the gun first firing, how quickly could a teacher safely move towards the gun fire? You just don't want them sprinting with a drawn handgun towards gun shots.

Do other countries that have a fraction of the number of children murdered in school have armed staff? Maybe there are more effective and proven ways to deal with it that don't result in accidental shootings in school.
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jkca1 wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?



Background checks have value, but rarely do they delve deep enough to determine a persons real character. I know that when one of my friends joined a Govt. agency the background process took about 15 months and it included interviews with multiple in her life, including myself. Florida looks for felonies and sexual misconduct. You can read about the law here if it interests you;


http://www.fldoe.org/...ng-requirements.stml


As a parent I am torn. I realize the chances of a shooting happening are very small. But my kid's school already undergoes drills regularly in case a shooting does happen. If teachers were professionally trained I am not sure it would be a bad thing compared to hoping nothing would ever happen. You look at Parkland and wonder what the outcome would have been had those teachers been armed. 17 killed....

Given that a resident of a home is more likely to be shot by a homeowner's gun than is a home intruder, why do you think the same would not apply to a school?

How would an armed Parkland teacher have helped? Would said teacher have been standing in the hallway carrying a gun when it all went down? Would the teacher have gone after the shooter instead of trying to secure his/her classroom? Would you trust a teacher to shoot the correct target in a chaotic situation, and not hit an innocent bystander?

Did you know that the Sergeant who died in the Thousand Oaks shooting was killed by a CHP officer, who likely had far more training than any teacher would ever have?

As a parent and a spouse of a teacher, I think it is a stupid idea.

----------------------------------
"i disagree with your analysis [or judgment], nevertheless you have the responsibility of moderating this board so i honor your authority to make the moderating decisions."
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
jkca1 wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?



Background checks have value, but rarely do they delve deep enough to determine a persons real character. I know that when one of my friends joined a Govt. agency the background process took about 15 months and it included interviews with multiple in her life, including myself. Florida looks for felonies and sexual misconduct. You can read about the law here if it interests you;


http://www.fldoe.org/...ng-requirements.stml


As a parent I am torn. I realize the chances of a shooting happening are very small. But my kid's school already undergoes drills regularly in case a shooting does happen. If teachers were professionally trained I am not sure it would be a bad thing compared to hoping nothing would ever happen. You look at Parkland and wonder what the outcome would have been had those teachers been armed. 17 killed....


Given that a resident of a home is more likely to be shot by a homeowner's gun than is a home intruder, why do you think the same would not apply to a school?

How would an armed Parkland teacher have helped? Would said teacher have been standing in the hallway carrying a gun when it all went down? Would the teacher have gone after the shooter instead of trying to secure his/her classroom? Would you trust a teacher to shoot the correct target in a chaotic situation, and not hit an innocent bystander?

Did you know that the Sergeant who died in the Thousand Oaks shooting was killed by a CHP officer, who likely had far more training than any teacher would ever have?

As a parent and a spouse of a teacher, I think it is a stupid idea.

But what's your alternative? Doing nothing is not an option.

There is nothing which I dread so much as a division of the republic into two great parties, each arranged under its leader, and concerting measures in opposition to each other. This, in my humble apprehension, is to be dreaded as the greatest political evil under our Constitution.
~ John Adams, Letter to Jonathan Jackson (October 2, 1780).
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
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jkca1 wrote:
The report recommends the Legislature approve a measure allowing teachers – who volunteer and undergo extensive background checks and training – to carry concealed guns in schools.
I'd be interested to see what the "extensive training" would involve.

When will the teachers find the time to complete their "extensive" (and one would hope recurring) training? What are the minimum standards that will be required in order to be on campus with a firearm? How will the police distinguish the teacher running around waving his/her handgun from the angry parent looking to confront a teacher? Are these teachers still supposed to lesson plan, 90-day plan, attend workshops, attend staff meetings, grade papers, meet with parents, provide extra help after school, fill out their Domain 1-4 evaluation paperwork, complete their annual reflection, etc. (Not to mention spending time trying to learn more about the subject(s) that they're supposed to be teaching.)

This is a stupid idea.


"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [jkca1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
jkca1 wrote:
klehner wrote:
jkca1 wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?



Background checks have value, but rarely do they delve deep enough to determine a persons real character. I know that when one of my friends joined a Govt. agency the background process took about 15 months and it included interviews with multiple in her life, including myself. Florida looks for felonies and sexual misconduct. You can read about the law here if it interests you;


http://www.fldoe.org/...ng-requirements.stml


As a parent I am torn. I realize the chances of a shooting happening are very small. But my kid's school already undergoes drills regularly in case a shooting does happen. If teachers were professionally trained I am not sure it would be a bad thing compared to hoping nothing would ever happen. You look at Parkland and wonder what the outcome would have been had those teachers been armed. 17 killed....


Given that a resident of a home is more likely to be shot by a homeowner's gun than is a home intruder, why do you think the same would not apply to a school?

How would an armed Parkland teacher have helped? Would said teacher have been standing in the hallway carrying a gun when it all went down? Would the teacher have gone after the shooter instead of trying to secure his/her classroom? Would you trust a teacher to shoot the correct target in a chaotic situation, and not hit an innocent bystander?

Did you know that the Sergeant who died in the Thousand Oaks shooting was killed by a CHP officer, who likely had far more training than any teacher would ever have?

As a parent and a spouse of a teacher, I think it is a stupid idea.


But what's your alternative? Doing nothing is not an option.

Well there are alternatives that are proven to work, they just don't make gun manufactures money, so they don't happen.
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


Just out of curiosity, did the report address why every other industrialized country has a fraction of the number of kids murdered in school? Haven't they solved the problem already?

I expected an asinine response, but, you outdid yourself here.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
jkca1 wrote:

As a parent I am torn. I realize the chances of a shooting happening are very small. But my kid's school already undergoes drills regularly in case a shooting does happen. If teachers were professionally trained I am not sure it would be a bad thing compared to hoping nothing would ever happen. You look at Parkland and wonder what the outcome would have been had those teachers been armed. 17 killed....


But how many more accidental shooting will there be with more guns in a school? What if a student gets hold of the gun? Will they even be effective? If they do draw their guns, how many children will they accidentally shoot (how many times have cops shot the wrong person and they will have more training than teachers)?

In order to be profecient with a gun, it takes lots of training and continual training. Let alone when you are going be clearing rooms by yourself, do we really think teachers (and other staff) will invest that sort of time? Most of these school shooting deaths happen withing minutes of the gun first firing, how quickly could a teacher safely move towards the gun fire? You just don't want them sprinting with a drawn handgun towards gun shots.

Do other countries that have a fraction of the number of children murdered in school have armed staff? Maybe there are more effective and proven ways to deal with it that don't result in accidental shootings in school.

But how many fewer shootings will there be now that some teachers that already own guns will undergo additional training to not blow their face off.
Quote Reply
Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Kay Serrar wrote:
JSA wrote:
jkca1 wrote:
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


I am not sure what you have read but I took this verbatim from the Commission Report on page 123;

"Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident."

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf



That is on page 104 (not page 123) and is quoted, verbatim, in my response, above. Recommending the expansion of a long-existing program (i.e. the Guardian Program) to include teachers with other school district employees is a far cry from recommending that teachers be armed. The newspaper knows this, but, it used wording that would elicit a visceral reaction.


It seems to recommend that teachers be allowed to be armed if they volunteer for the Guardian Program and pass the necessary checks, no?

It recommends expansion of the Florida Guardian Program. Currently, over 1/3 of the school districts in Florida participate. It is anticipated that well over 1/2 of the districts in the state will participate by the end of 2019. Guardians are school district personnel. For some reason, teachers were explicitly excluded from the program, without explanation. The proposal is to remove that restriction and include them in the class of school district employees eligible for participation. It would still require school board approval for a school district to even participate in the program.

So, the recommendation is to expand an existing program (that is in wide use, mind you) to include, arguably, the most logical employees. But, if the headlines said: Committee Recommends Expanding the Florida Guardian Program to Include Teachers, no one would read. When you say, "Committee Recommends Arming Teachers," it creates click-bait.

Surely you can see the difference between what the title implies and what the actual recommendation entails.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [Alvin Tostig] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Alvin Tostig wrote:
jkca1 wrote:
The report recommends the Legislature approve a measure allowing teachers – who volunteer and undergo extensive background checks and training – to carry concealed guns in schools.

I'd be interested to see what the "extensive training" would involve.

When will the teachers find the time to complete their "extensive" (and one would hope recurring) training? What are the minimum standards that will be required in order to be on campus with a firearm? How will the police distinguish the teacher running around waving his/her handgun from the angry parent looking to confront a teacher? Are these teachers still supposed to lesson plan, 90-day plan, attend workshops, attend staff meetings, grade papers, meet with parents, provide extra help after school, fill out their Domain 1-4 evaluation paperwork, complete their annual reflection, etc. (Not to mention spending time trying to learn more about the subject(s) that they're supposed to be teaching.)

This is a stupid idea.


Participation would require 176 hours of training, which could last about five weeks over the 2018 summer break. By law, the training must include:
  • 80 hours of firearms instruction
  • 16 hours of instruction on precision pistol instruction
  • 8 hours of instruction and experience in shooting simulators
  • 8 hours of instruction in active-shooter or assailant scenarios
  • 8 hours of instruction in defensive tactics
  • 12 hours of instruction on legal issues
  • 12 hours of certified, nationally recognized diversity training.

They would also be required to complete 16 hours of annual re-certification training and re-quality on marksmanship annually.

NOTE: Not taking a position one way or another, just responding to your request.

EDIT TO ADD: To date, 1/3 of the school districts in Florida are participating in this program. Currently, the law excludes teachers from eligible employees. But, 1/3 of the school district in Florida have found other school district employees willing to participate and have qualified.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Last edited by: JSA: Jan 3, 19 14:11
Quote Reply
Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [JSA] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


Just out of curiosity, did the report address why every other industrialized country has a fraction of the number of kids murdered in school? Haven't they solved the problem already?


I expected an asinine response, but, you outdid yourself here.

If the goal is less murdered children, shouldn't we start with what has proven to work? Or is that in your contention asinine?
Quote Reply
Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [velocomp] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
velocomp wrote:
chaparral wrote:
jkca1 wrote:

As a parent I am torn. I realize the chances of a shooting happening are very small. But my kid's school already undergoes drills regularly in case a shooting does happen. If teachers were professionally trained I am not sure it would be a bad thing compared to hoping nothing would ever happen. You look at Parkland and wonder what the outcome would have been had those teachers been armed. 17 killed....


But how many more accidental shooting will there be with more guns in a school? What if a student gets hold of the gun? Will they even be effective? If they do draw their guns, how many children will they accidentally shoot (how many times have cops shot the wrong person and they will have more training than teachers)?

In order to be profecient with a gun, it takes lots of training and continual training. Let alone when you are going be clearing rooms by yourself, do we really think teachers (and other staff) will invest that sort of time? Most of these school shooting deaths happen withing minutes of the gun first firing, how quickly could a teacher safely move towards the gun fire? You just don't want them sprinting with a drawn handgun towards gun shots.

Do other countries that have a fraction of the number of children murdered in school have armed staff? Maybe there are more effective and proven ways to deal with it that don't result in accidental shootings in school.


But how many fewer shootings will there be now that some teachers that already own guns will undergo additional training to not blow their face off.

I agree we should require 176 hours of training to own a gun. We are on the same page. Unless you want people to shoot their face off.
Quote Reply
Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
chaparral wrote:
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


Just out of curiosity, did the report address why every other industrialized country has a fraction of the number of kids murdered in school? Haven't they solved the problem already?


I expected an asinine response, but, you outdid yourself here.


If the goal is less murdered children, shouldn't we start with what has proven to work? Or is that in your contention asinine?

So, now you want to outlaw abortion? Really?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
Quote Reply
Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [JSA] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
JSA wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
JSA wrote:
jkca1 wrote:
JSA wrote:
chaparral wrote:
So the conclusion of a panel studying the parkland shooting, that occurred at a school with an armed guard that did not stop the shooting, is to allow even less trained to people to be armed?


You mean the 4 hours of class instruction he received in April of 2016, which involved no physical training exercises or scenario specific role playing?


chaparral wrote:
Also extensive background checks will be required to arm teachers? Umm, what sort of additional background checks are we not already doing for teachers?


Just out of curiosity, did you read the report? Nowhere in the report does it recommend arming teachers.

Chapter 3 addresses the response of the school and school district personnel. The recommended changes in that section refer to such things as keeping doors locked during the school day, granting teachers access to first alert systems, and giving teachers the ability to lock classroom doors from the inside. There is no mention of arming teachers.

Chapter 4 addresses the response of the SRO. There are several criticisms regarding the lack of training he received and his lack of response. There is a call for more funding for the SRO program and more SROs on campus. In that section, on page 104, it mentions expansion of the Florida Guardian Program, which has been in existence for years. Currently, it only applies to administration, but, the suggestion is to expand the existing program:

Guardian Program School districts and charter schools should permit the most expansive use of the Guardian Program under existing law to allow personnel—who volunteer, are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained—to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection and the protection of other staff and students. School districts and charter schools should not restrict the existing Guardian Program only to dedicated guardians, and all districts should expand the guardian eligibility to other school employees now permitted to be guardians. Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for selfprotection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident. The Legislature shoud modify Florida Statute 30.15 (1)(k) to state that upon, a majority vote of the School Board, the sheriff shall establish a Coach Aaron Feis Guardian Program to aid in the prevention or abatement of active assailant incidents on school premises.

Here is the report: http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf

Of course, this is quite a bit different than recommending that "teachers be armed." But, don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant!


I am not sure what you have read but I took this verbatim from the Commission Report on page 123;

"Further, the Florida legislature should expand the Guardian Program to allow teachers who volunteer—in addition to those now authorized—who are properly selected, thoroughly screened and extensively trained to carry concealed firearms on campuses for self-protection, and the protection of other staff and students in response to an active assailant incident."

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/...CommissionReport.pdf



That is on page 104 (not page 123) and is quoted, verbatim, in my response, above. Recommending the expansion of a long-existing program (i.e. the Guardian Program) to include teachers with other school district employees is a far cry from recommending that teachers be armed. The newspaper knows this, but, it used wording that would elicit a visceral reaction.


It seems to recommend that teachers be allowed to be armed if they volunteer for the Guardian Program and pass the necessary checks, no?

It recommends expansion of the Florida Guardian Program. Currently, over 1/3 of the school districts in Florida participate. It is anticipated that well over 1/2 of the districts in the state will participate by the end of 2019. Guardians are school district personnel. For some reason, teachers were explicitly excluded from the program, without explanation. The proposal is to remove that restriction and include them in the class of school district employees eligible for participation. It would still require school board approval for a school district to even participate in the program.

So, the recommendation is to expand an existing program (that is in wide use, mind you) to include, arguably, the most logical employees. But, if the headlines said: Committee Recommends Expanding the Florida Guardian Program to Include Teachers, no one would read. When you say, "Committee Recommends Arming Teachers," it creates click-bait.

Surely you can see the difference between what the title implies and what the actual recommendation entails.

You say teachers are "arguably the most logical employees" (to be armed), yet then say you're not taking a position. So you have no opinion?
Quote Reply
Re: Florida Panel Recommends Teachers be Armed [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Kay Serrar wrote:
You say teachers are "arguably the most logical employees" (to be armed), yet then say you're not taking a position. So you have no opinion?

I have plenty of opinions. What I said was, I am not taking a position on what Florida should or should not do. That's for the people of Florida to decide.

What I take issue with is the click-bait headline in the linked news article. It is intellectually dishonest and is intended to elicit a certain response. The posts in the thread clearly evince it worked.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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