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Alabama - derp! - bans abortion...
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These idiots...

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State senators voted 25-6 for the bill that had overwhelmingly cleared the House of Representatives earlier this month. The legislation now goes to Gov. Kay Ivey, who will decide whether to sign the bill into law.
Ivey has not publicly said whether she will sign the bill if it's approved by lawmakers.
"The governor intends to withhold comment until it makes its way to her desk for signature," deputy press secretary Lori Jhons wrote in an email prior to Tuesday night's vote.

Hopefully the governor realizes this will only create a huge backlash and make it damn near impossible for any republican president to nominate RBG’s (RIP) replacement.

Oh, and that whole banning of abortions is fucking stupid too..

Fucking religion...

- The thrall alone takes instant vengeance; the coward never...
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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This makes me think of a Neil Young song.


"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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why do so may people feel they have the right to dictate what others do with their bodies.
You have the right, and I'm glad your do, to decide what happens to you, but why the F. do you need to impose this on me.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Avago] [ In reply to ]
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I just had this discussion with a friend.

His whole argument stems from once a life is created, that life has rights. Fairly enough he then asked the question with that is when do you believe life is created.

I asked about rape and his answer was that he believes it is then the womens responsibility to give birth to that life as that life has rights. My reply was who has more "power" in their rights, an unborn child or a women who has "x" age, etc. He said it's the womens responsibility.

My take from that was when a women is born they inherit certain responsibilities no matter what happens to them. I simply disagree.

FWIW he is a conservative christian. I don't believe he is wrong at all, just that his opinions are vastly different from me.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Avago] [ In reply to ]
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Certainly don't think it should be banned, but there should be a penalty of sorts (levy on procedure etc) to make people think twice about taking precautions. It shouldn't be as easy as going "whoops, off to the clinic." It's a living organism / potential human we're talking about.

Men can pay for their 10 second brain fade. It really isn't that hard to avoid.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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I asked about rape and his answer was that he believes it is then the womens responsibility to give birth to that life as that life has rights. My reply was who has more "power" in their rights, an unborn child or a women who has "x" age, etc. He said it's the womens responsibility.

Yeah, I don't have strong feelings one way or the other on this issue, but I really don't understand when people don't seem to be able to grasp the pro-life position. Disagree with it, sure. But it's fairly easy to understand.

A woman's right to choose what to do with her body doesn't outweigh the right of the person who's growing inside her to live. If two people have a physically dependent relationship, one doesn't get to kill the other and call it "their right to choose." If you had conjoined twins, the rights of one twin to choose what to do with their body wouldn't outweigh the right of the other twin to live. (I get that it's not a perfect analogy)

Plenty of room to disagree about when or if the unborn person attains the rights associated with personhood. But the concept is not difficult to understand. It's not about telling women what to do. It's about respecting the unalienable right to life of the unborn child, even if that interferes with the rights otherwise held by the mother.

This isn't to say that there isn't some segment of pro-lifers that just want to tell women what to do, just like there's probably some segment of pro-choicers who just want to tell old white men to eff' off.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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 I am in the camp you describe as pro life, yet I am a reluctant pro choice.

Women are going to do it if they really want to. So I say give them the option but we should do a better job of educating them about the pros of allowing the child to live and be adopted. Having looked into the adoption system it made it quite clear how many couples are willing to raise/love those children.

Anyway pro choice but hoping that choice is giving life a chance and not termination of a possible life.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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abstinence works but you can still get raped.

As long as there is no reliable, cheap, semi-permanent, undetectable, easily reversed form of contraception (maybe the coil comes closest) it's a no-win situation.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.instagram.com/...rce=ig_web_copy_link

I'm not sure what the answer is. I have a serious problem with men telling women what they can do with their bodies

The piece of art outside this hospital in Qatar shows 14 stages from conception to birth

I think it's impossible to argue that in the initial stages that life is viable on its own

What's the earliest premie babies survive? 20 something weeks?

I'd buy the argument that outside of a life threatening condition to the mother that would result in her death after a fetus / baby could survive outside the womb abortions should be bannned

Prior to that though its difficult to make the case a living sustainable organism is being killed
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah. Only men are pro life. Men tell women what to do with their bodies.

WHY DO MEN HATE WOMEN?!?!?

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I have a serious problem with men telling women what they can do with their bodies

I have a serious problem with continuing the frame the issue that way. This is not "men telling women" what to do. It's society deciding what abortion policy should be, just like society determines what vaccination policy should be, or various other medical and health related issues. We're generally past the point where the government is just a bunch of old white men. Men aren't the only ones who are pro-life, and not all women are pro-choice.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah but you’re a misogynistic, neo-nazi Cis male pig who deserves to die. So your opinion doesn’t matter.

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Except that in this very specific instance, how many of the 27 were men.......
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.theguardian.com/...hite-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I have a serious problem with men telling women what they can do with their bodies

Those of us who are opposed to abortion aren't trying to tell women what to do with their bodies. First, the issue isn't the rights of the mother as much as the rights of the baby. If you believe an individual has rights (everyone does) and you believe an unborn child is a living being (not everyone does), then you can argue that the unborn baby has the right to live even if they can't defend themselves. The man and women made a choice to have sex (not in the cases of rape). That choice was made and now the rights of the unborn child have to be considered.

Second, a child isn't just a women's so men should have input which is not the same thing as telling. women what she can do with her body.

You're such a Trump ball washer! - Duffy - Feb 8, 17 13:18
Last edited by: Sanuk: May 15, 19 4:50
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I really wish that women hating men would stop fighting against abortion. I mean look at these rallies. All men.

Fuck men.








How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........

If only there was some demographic breakdown we could see of who voted these men in. I bet it was only men who voted for these WOMEN HATING MONSTERS!!!!

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
A woman's right to choose what to do with her body doesn't outweigh the right of the person who's growing inside her to live. If two people have a physically dependent relationship, one doesn't get to kill the other and call it "their right to choose." If you had conjoined twins, the rights of one twin to choose what to do with their body wouldn't outweigh the right of the other twin to live. (I get that it's not a perfect analogy)

Plenty of room to disagree about when or if the unborn person attains the rights associated with personhood. But the concept is not difficult to understand. It's not about telling women what to do. It's about respecting the unalienable right to life of the unborn child, even if that interferes with the rights otherwise held by the mother.

That's the simple nub of the issue. Do you go with
(a) the moment of conception. At that point you have a pinprick of cells which may or may not end up being viable, even if carried to term.
(b) the moment of heartbeat.
(c) the moment the "unborn person" (a description that is itself loaded) is viable outside the womb.

For elective abortions, to me (c) is the only answer that makes any sort of sense. It then has to be made more rigid though to become legislation by the election of a particular point (eg, in the UK, 24 weeks), just as legislation sets other fixed points for things where individuals may vary (eg age of consent, voting age).

For other cases, such as where there is a risk to the mother's life or a late diagnosis of a serious handicap, the argument is more nuanced. Risk to the mother's life presents a classic balance of who do you choose to save? That seems to me to be obviously a decision for the mother: if she wants to take the risk of carrying to term, so be it, and if she doesn't, she should not have to.

FWIW I regard phrases such as "the right to life of the unborn child" to be unhelpful if one wants to have a dispassionate debate about this, highly emotive, subject. Unless the foetus is at a

Serious handicap is perhaps the most difficult one. There, there is no risk to anyone else's health. Yet the balance is between the life of the child and the burden the parents would face. Some parents would perhaps see that as a gift, and not a burden, in which case fine. But for those who do not share that view it is difficult balance between the parents' freedom to live their lives as they choose and the foetus's right to be born.

FWIW I regard phrases such as "the right to life of the unborn child" as unhelpful if one wants to have a dispassionate debate about an emotive subject like this. For me, unless the unborn child is viable ex-utero, it has no "right" to life. The conjoined twins example is interesting, but conjoined twins tend to be mutually dependent, rather than there being one who is wholly dependent on another, and the other being able to survive independently if separated. So I don't think it offers much for this debate.

When our first daughter was born we spent some time in neonatal intensive care. The smallest delivery there was under a pound, delivered at 16 weeks. I don't know what the outcome was, as we were in and out quite quickly. Medicine can make very early deliveries viable these days, but often the resulting child has long term developmental issues.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........

Moreover, what Alabama (and Georgia) have done is aimed squarely at provoking litigation which will go to SCOTUS with a view to overturning Roe v Wade.

Ultimately, therefore, this will be decided by 7 men and 2 women.
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........

The governor is a womens.

Also this...



- The thrall alone takes instant vengeance; the coward never...
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Greg66] [ In reply to ]
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Greg66 wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........

Moreover, what Alabama (and Georgia) have done is aimed squarely at provoking litigation which will go to SCOTUS with a view to overturning Roe v Wade.

Ultimately, therefore, this will be decided by 7 men and 2 women.

Men can represent women and vice versa.

See poll above and you will see that men and women support or oppose abortion in roughly equal numbers.

I’m totally for legal abortions but the pro-choice movement has been very disingenuous on this whole issue.

- The thrall alone takes instant vengeance; the coward never...
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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My issue is with people telling other people what they are allowed to do with their bodies.

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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/may/14/alabama-abortion-ban-white-men-republicans

27 republicans. 25 men out of the 35 total voted for it......

So keep stating that it's men and women who are pro life but in this instance it was carried by men........


You're missing my point. This is not a men against women issue. It's a government taking action to protect or impinge (or both) on personal rights (depending on which side you're on) issue.


Plus, those 25 men are the duly elected representatives of a whole bunch of men and women.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [Greg66] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW I regard phrases such as "the right to life of the unborn child" as unhelpful if one wants to have a dispassionate debate about an emotive subject like this. For me, unless the unborn child is viable ex-utero, it has no "right" to life. The conjoined twins example is interesting, but conjoined twins tend to be mutually dependent, rather than there being one who is wholly dependent on another, and the other being able to survive independently if separated. So I don't think it offers much for this debate.

Well, that's fine, but obviously, that is just your opinion about when the right to life exists. The point of mentioning the "right to life of the unborn child" is to illustrate that this isn't just an issue of pro-life people wanting to tell women what to do. It's an issue of pro-life people wanting to protect the rights of the unborn child, as they see them. Got it, they and you disagree about what those rights are.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Alabama - derp! - bans abortion... [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
My issue is with people telling other people what they are allowed to do with their bodies.

Do you carry this same opinion with all aspect of what people do with there bodies?

Drugs, food, suicide, etc.?

What about vaccines, medical care?

- The thrall alone takes instant vengeance; the coward never...
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