This is great! Thank for setting this up and getting it going.
I have been to FIST, two Specialized programs, going back to Retul in September to "freshen up" and get some riding in.
I use the Guru DFU and a rotating platform with a Computrainer on it, both of which I use the Retul and Spinscans on.
Mostly I just sell custom bikes though lightly getting back into the "stock" side of things.
This is going to be great to kick around ideas and see what works here.

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Every day is Race day

KOPS – knee over pedal spindle or saddle fore/aft position.
Does it have a place? The less you know about bike fitting the more important it is. It gives you a reference. The more you know about bike fit the less important this coordinate is but it may still be good to note (keep in your notes).
The more you know about bike fitting or the more ‘good’ experience you have the more you will look at the overall balance on the bike.

For example if the KOPS is good but it looks like you could pop a wheelie if just a strong head wind hit you, you are probably sitting too far back on the bike and probably not displaying a good overall balance.

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Swifty

no surprises on throwing KOPS out the window. glad most everyone seems to agree on that, because it's still used quite a lot in my part of the country.

i believe seat setback should in large part be dictated by how much weight is supported by the upper body. while riding on the hoods or drops, it should be minimal or you are wasting a lot of energy not pedaling a bike. not to mention likely reinforcing postural imbalances that will catch up to the rider eventually.

so many factors come into play...torso/limb lengths, flexibility, past injuries, pedaling style, etc...that it's silly to say everyone should have the same reference point.

not a fan of using reference points or ranges at all really. i am a fan of closely observing my riders and helping them find a cleat position that allows a balance between power, stability, control of the pedal; a seat height that gives the most fluent pedal stroke; a setback that balances the torso; and bar position that maximizes control. you can still be aero and comfortable. i think people forget that.

John, one of my friends here in Panama City attended a workshop and learned your technique. I will follow up with him and provide some feedback on (1) the ease of use of your method, and (2) how it correlates to KOP and vice versa.

I fit a friend yesterday (on a road bike) and his saddle was 3/4" too low. It was also about 10 deg nose down. KOP was slightly forward of neutral.

I leveled the saddle slightly nose down. (I like to place the bubble split on the left hatch mark) and raised it to where he consistently achieved 25 deg of knee bend. (His before was about 40 deg). I use Kinovea software to dynamically measure leg extension and position in general. In my experience everyone pedals more heal up than when you stop them and try to measure the angle with a goniometer. I can also achieve consistent and more accurate angle measurements on the computer.

I did not move the saddle rearward since raising the saddle has the same affect. He has to re-learn how and where to sit on the saddle now that he's not sliding forward. I would like to recheck his fit using your muscle switch-over technique.

Reach and bar height was also way off. But you probably don't want to hear about all that...

I'm just jumping in on this post as I am researching new bike fit techniques for the next edition of my book on road bike skills. As has been discussed earlier, you can't ride well without riding smooth and comfortably. I am just hoping that providing an easy reference will be useful to the road and tri community.
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Watch Your Line: Techniques to Improve Road Cycling Skills
Available in print and Kindle on Amazon.com. Also available on iTunes and Lulu.com.

My biggest issue with looking at saddle fore/aft placement and measurement is that it does not tell you where the rider sits. This is especially true with triathletes. More experienced riders tend to ride much further out on the nose of the saddle than newer riders. The difference in butt placement on the saddles can be inches. If we are truly looking at the body on the bike, a rider who prefers to sit back on the saddle might require an 85 degree seat tube to get their body into a FIST-like position. Beyond this issue, saddle fore/aft has a noticeable impact on weight distribution of the bike. This is something I have been very interested in over the years, especially as I have designed production Road, Mountain, and Cyclocross bikes. Weight distribution greatly impacts the way a bike handles. Desired weight distribution depends on terrain, fitness, riding style, and skill, but even then there is a small window of what works or can be achieved with standard geometries.


As someone else mentioned doing, I put a scale under the front wheel of the bike on the trainer. I also weigh the rider and bike together to get an overall weight. On a road rider I am looking for between 35 and 45% of the weight on the front wheel. For a triathlete or TT rider I am looking for more than 50% of the weight on the front wheel. There isn't any evidence that fore/aft position prevents injury. The studies I have read about maximizing power through seat tube angle are typically flawed. I don't believe fore/aft position alters muscle recruitment over the long run either. I encourage anyone with an EMG to use it on themselves and work on changing your muscle use within the same position (PowerCranks...). After adaptation, muscles will go back to their original patterns unless technique has changed. For me its all about how the bike will handle. Now here's the rub: KOPS done properly, generally puts the road rider in a position where 35 to 45% of their weight is on the front wheel.


The biggest problem with KOPS is that it is driven by knee and ankle angles, as well as crank length. Someone who rides better with more knee flexion (lower saddle), doesn't necessarily need a saddle set back farther as KOPS would dictate. I have also noticed that during fitting, riders will unintentionally fight a new position by moving on the saddle or altering ankling patterns. This would also result in a flawed fore/aft position based on KOPS. Before we could truly based fitting on KOPS we would all have to agree on a common crank length protocol.


A well thought out chart would probably work just as well as anything to find a starting place. After that I believe it's all fine tuning, which the correct sized road bike should leave plenty of room for.


Carl
New England Bicycle Consulting

Hi Slowman,

You did write a lot !! most of which was wasted, however you did hit the nail on the head when you said a system should be dynamic, this is 100% correct, dynamic is an exact science not a hit or miss, not trial or error , of course you need actual left and right power with a dynamic bike and EMG would make it even better.

There are only two Dynamic bikes and as they both have patents covering the systems it is likely there will not be any more, so the choice is Guru or Biobike.

Powerone