Should new rims be cleaned with acetone before tape? Is the tufo tape strong enough for something like road racing as well as crits? Sounds like a good alternative. If it matter conti comps are the tire and rims are zipps.
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Re: Tublar Tape procedure? [trijunior]
[ In reply to ]
There should be no glue/residue on the rim or tire. I have used the tape a good bit, and never cleaned the rims with acetone, perhpas a light sanding and brush over. The tape is strong enough for track use, i doubt you wil ever put your tire/rim under that kind of side load.
Be sure to wet the cotton strip so that you can slide it on and center the tire without a big hassle.
Be sure to wet the cotton strip so that you can slide it on and center the tire without a big hassle.
Re: Tublar Tape procedure? [Ben in FL]
[ In reply to ]
At the bike shop I do fitting for, we have seen several instances where riders have rolled tires using just Tufo tape without glue (I rolled two tires in a single cross race myself.) I would highly recommend a light coat of glue on both rim and tire before using the tape. Zero rolled tires doing this, in our experience.
MH
Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
MH
Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
Re: Tublar Tape procedure? [fredly]
[ In reply to ]
I can't believe this is possible if the tires were mounted using the tape properly. I'm a fairly big muscular guy (as triathletes go), and I fought like crazy to get a Tufo tape mounted new tufo tubular off my acetone cleaned hed disk. Even then, the tape had only come off the rim, not even a bit off the tire itself. I've never had a glue mounted tire that was anywhere near that tough, and I've tried nearly all the glues out there.
I doubt that Tufo would recommend additional glue to improve mounting strength.
Dan
Re: Tublar Tape procedure? [fredly]
[ In reply to ]
Iwould think that adding glue will prevent the tape from bonding to the rim, rendering it useless.
I would contact tufo, until then DO NOT USE GLUE AND TAPE AT THE SAME TIME!
You are doing something wrong if you are rolling tires that often. I know guys screaming around the track and on crit courses at very high speeds on this tape.
I would contact tufo, until then DO NOT USE GLUE AND TAPE AT THE SAME TIME!
You are doing something wrong if you are rolling tires that often. I know guys screaming around the track and on crit courses at very high speeds on this tape.
Re: Tublar Tape procedure? [Dapper Dan]
[ In reply to ]
Post":
I can't believe this is possible if the tires were mounted using the tape properly. I'm a fairly big muscular guy (as triathletes go), and I fought like crazy to get a Tufo tape mounted new tufo tubular off my acetone cleaned hed disk. Even then, the tape had only come off the rim, not even a bit off the tire itself. I've never had a glue mounted tire that was anywhere near that tough, and I've tried nearly all the glues out there.
I doubt that Tufo would recommend additional glue to improve mounting strength.
Dan "
Believe what you like, it's the truth, and yes, the tires were mounted properly. I actually know much more than the average joe about adhesives - I used to work with them for a living.
Tufo is not the only, or the first, manufacturer to offer adhesive rim tape for tubulars, and it has ALWAYS been accepted practice to apply a light coat of glue to the tire and rim before taping. The cotton tape surface of a good tubular, in particular, can be difficult for glue to adhere to without doing this first. In every single failure of the tape that I have seen the tape remained on the rim, but peeled away from the tire (as happened when you removed your tire, by the way.)
"Iwould think that adding glue will prevent the tape from bonding to the rim, rendering it useless.
I would contact tufo, until then DO NOT USE GLUE AND TAPE AT THE SAME TIME!
You are doing something wrong if you are rolling tires that often. I know guys screaming around the track and on crit courses at very high speeds on this tape. "
Why would you think that rim cement would prevent the tape from adhering to the rim? Serious question, I would like to know if you have anything to back this supposition up - I can offer some pretty good reasoning to the contrary, but honestly, I think that the rim surface isn't very problematic for the tape, it has a harder time adhering to the base tape, and this is where a wash coat of glue really helps..
Did you contact Tufo to ask about wetting the rim tape surface? This is a potentially horrible idea, depending on the adhesive used in the tape. I'm not saying it is a horrible idea, just pointing out that it could be - but I bet you didn't call to ask them...
Contrary to popular belief, the track just isn't that hard on tubulars - hell, most track riders swear by Fasttack, and that's been proven to have very low bond strength in this application. Crits are a different story, potentially, But I have glued literally hundreds of tires, and only rolled 3, two using Tufo tape, and all three in 'cross races.
I can tell you exactly why and when we have seen Tufo tape fail: in very heavy rain, with round carcass tires mounted to V shaped tubular beds - specifically (and ironically...) Tufo tires on Zipp rims. The failures appear to have occurred because: 1)the adhesive used appears to be somewhat water soluble, or at least loses bond strength when the base tape becomes saturated, and 2) the bond of the tape is very dependent on the profile of the tube matching that of the rim - a tire with a carcass shaped like "U" does not work well in a rim-bed shaped like "V" - which makes sense, as the Tufo tape is pressure activated.
The two tires I rolled were, as I said, cross tires; in pouring rain, with the tires inflated to a whopping 28 PSI on Zipp rims. This is pretty much the ultimate test for tubular adhesion, and the tape failed. Does this mean that the average triathlete has to worry about Tufo tape? No - but it's good info to have, and the product is not the foolproof/worryfree/brainless solution to tubular mounting many people think it is, and it may be a very bad choice for certain tire/rim combos. I stopped using the stuff on my cross tires - which was an expensive decision, as Tufo was giving it to me for free - and saved it for the TT/tri bike (conti on Zipps,) and have had no problems (knock on wood...)
MH
MH
Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
I can't believe this is possible if the tires were mounted using the tape properly. I'm a fairly big muscular guy (as triathletes go), and I fought like crazy to get a Tufo tape mounted new tufo tubular off my acetone cleaned hed disk. Even then, the tape had only come off the rim, not even a bit off the tire itself. I've never had a glue mounted tire that was anywhere near that tough, and I've tried nearly all the glues out there.
I doubt that Tufo would recommend additional glue to improve mounting strength.
Dan "
Believe what you like, it's the truth, and yes, the tires were mounted properly. I actually know much more than the average joe about adhesives - I used to work with them for a living.
Tufo is not the only, or the first, manufacturer to offer adhesive rim tape for tubulars, and it has ALWAYS been accepted practice to apply a light coat of glue to the tire and rim before taping. The cotton tape surface of a good tubular, in particular, can be difficult for glue to adhere to without doing this first. In every single failure of the tape that I have seen the tape remained on the rim, but peeled away from the tire (as happened when you removed your tire, by the way.)
"Iwould think that adding glue will prevent the tape from bonding to the rim, rendering it useless.
I would contact tufo, until then DO NOT USE GLUE AND TAPE AT THE SAME TIME!
You are doing something wrong if you are rolling tires that often. I know guys screaming around the track and on crit courses at very high speeds on this tape. "
Why would you think that rim cement would prevent the tape from adhering to the rim? Serious question, I would like to know if you have anything to back this supposition up - I can offer some pretty good reasoning to the contrary, but honestly, I think that the rim surface isn't very problematic for the tape, it has a harder time adhering to the base tape, and this is where a wash coat of glue really helps..
Did you contact Tufo to ask about wetting the rim tape surface? This is a potentially horrible idea, depending on the adhesive used in the tape. I'm not saying it is a horrible idea, just pointing out that it could be - but I bet you didn't call to ask them...
Contrary to popular belief, the track just isn't that hard on tubulars - hell, most track riders swear by Fasttack, and that's been proven to have very low bond strength in this application. Crits are a different story, potentially, But I have glued literally hundreds of tires, and only rolled 3, two using Tufo tape, and all three in 'cross races.
I can tell you exactly why and when we have seen Tufo tape fail: in very heavy rain, with round carcass tires mounted to V shaped tubular beds - specifically (and ironically...) Tufo tires on Zipp rims. The failures appear to have occurred because: 1)the adhesive used appears to be somewhat water soluble, or at least loses bond strength when the base tape becomes saturated, and 2) the bond of the tape is very dependent on the profile of the tube matching that of the rim - a tire with a carcass shaped like "U" does not work well in a rim-bed shaped like "V" - which makes sense, as the Tufo tape is pressure activated.
The two tires I rolled were, as I said, cross tires; in pouring rain, with the tires inflated to a whopping 28 PSI on Zipp rims. This is pretty much the ultimate test for tubular adhesion, and the tape failed. Does this mean that the average triathlete has to worry about Tufo tape? No - but it's good info to have, and the product is not the foolproof/worryfree/brainless solution to tubular mounting many people think it is, and it may be a very bad choice for certain tire/rim combos. I stopped using the stuff on my cross tires - which was an expensive decision, as Tufo was giving it to me for free - and saved it for the TT/tri bike (conti on Zipps,) and have had no problems (knock on wood...)
MH
MH
Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
Re: Tublar Tape procedure? [trijunior]
[ In reply to ]
If I remember correctly, Zipp wheels have no aluminum contact points, therefore you are gluing the tires directly to the carbon fiber. Skip the tape, as the casing on the tubular fulfills this purpose. As far as cleaning goes, this is a preferential issue. Some people clean everytime they replace a tire, some ever other time, it really is contingent on how much glue build up you have on the wheel (a little can be beneficial). Just remember after cleaning the wheel with acetone, you then need to clean the acetone from the wheel as it will diminish the adhesion quality of the glue and the last thing you want is a tubular rolling off your wheel in a turn.
Re: Tublar Tape procedure? [fredly]
[ In reply to ]
"Did you contact Tufo to ask about wetting the rim tape surface? "
Yes i did. They highly recommended doing this.
If you glue the tire and rim, and then apply tape, how do you expect the solvent on the tape to bond to the rim or tire as it is intended to do? But why take the advice of an anonymous dude on an internet forum when it comes to your own safety? Why not contact tufo and then respond back on the forum with your findings. Unless i was the one who glued/taped/built/did whatever to your wheels, i could care less if your wheel fails or tire rolls.
It prob. would have been better to elaborate a bit on the cross conditions you were riding in, as i don't think tufo would recomend riding at 28 psi with a cross tire on a zipp rim with a rim tape that relies heavily on a pressure activated solvent. Mabe they would, you should ask them.
Also many people read the directions wrong and can mount the tape the wrong way, even then it should still not cuase a roll off.
in the time it has taken everyone to respond, you or anyone else could have called up or emailed tufo and asked them directly any questions regarding the tape.
Yes i did. They highly recommended doing this.
If you glue the tire and rim, and then apply tape, how do you expect the solvent on the tape to bond to the rim or tire as it is intended to do? But why take the advice of an anonymous dude on an internet forum when it comes to your own safety? Why not contact tufo and then respond back on the forum with your findings. Unless i was the one who glued/taped/built/did whatever to your wheels, i could care less if your wheel fails or tire rolls.
It prob. would have been better to elaborate a bit on the cross conditions you were riding in, as i don't think tufo would recomend riding at 28 psi with a cross tire on a zipp rim with a rim tape that relies heavily on a pressure activated solvent. Mabe they would, you should ask them.
Also many people read the directions wrong and can mount the tape the wrong way, even then it should still not cuase a roll off.
in the time it has taken everyone to respond, you or anyone else could have called up or emailed tufo and asked them directly any questions regarding the tape.
Re: Tublar Tape procedure? [Ben in FL]
[ In reply to ]
I was, at the time, sponsored by Tufo, and that level of inflation is what those tires are designed for, and the tape is supposed to be just fine at that pressure. I gave a pretty lengthy explanation of why the bond failed.
The wetting of the tire is interesting; they weren't recommending this when I first tried the tape (before they were importing it to the US.) It does make sense, and also falls in line with the conditions I have seen the tape fail under (very wet.)
Solvent doesn't "bond" to anything - by definition.
MH
Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
The wetting of the tire is interesting; they weren't recommending this when I first tried the tape (before they were importing it to the US.) It does make sense, and also falls in line with the conditions I have seen the tape fail under (very wet.)
Solvent doesn't "bond" to anything - by definition.
MH
Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/
"Solvent doesn't "bond" to anything - by definition."
solvent activated bond. my careless mistake.
With the current tape, the solvent is trapped into the little square bubbles in the tape, and when the tire pressure is high enough, the bubbles pop, releasing the solvent and activating the bond. Knowing how the stuff works, i don't think i would use it for wide/low psi tires, even if tufo gave the go ahead, but i wouldn't ride a zipp in a cross race either, (even if it was free).
I think tufo has changed there minds over time but pretty much has it figured out now, atleast for road use.
solvent activated bond. my careless mistake.
With the current tape, the solvent is trapped into the little square bubbles in the tape, and when the tire pressure is high enough, the bubbles pop, releasing the solvent and activating the bond. Knowing how the stuff works, i don't think i would use it for wide/low psi tires, even if tufo gave the go ahead, but i wouldn't ride a zipp in a cross race either, (even if it was free).
I think tufo has changed there minds over time but pretty much has it figured out now, atleast for road use.