A friend just got the new GTO and is really enjoying that. V-8!

Seriously, if you can get a good deal on a LEASE, most new cars are pretty decent. If you are BUYING, then I'd look at total cost of ownership, in which case, even with a "smoking" deal, a Honda or Toyota will be a better buy. Given that GM (or any American mfr. for that matter) doesn't really make a whole lot on each car, even your best deal for buying cannot be that good.

But, if you are talking leasing, I think the playing field narrows since everything is under warranty for the duration of your use of the car anyway.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

0% financing on a purchase. Hard to beat that.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

If you are going to own this car, think about long terms costs. Will the money you save through zero percent financing cover the cost of a new transmission 5 years from now... The long term quality of GM cars is just not there.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Not to mention resale value.

What was I thinking...I have 2 Hondas, why not 3?

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I'm sorry, but I'll be throwing myself into every car thread for a few weeks. I love this Toyota FJ Cruiser. It is way more vehicle than I thought I was getting.

Don't confuse the financing decision with the investment decision. 0% financing is just a way of changing the price, which may or may not be a good deal for you depending on your other investment options.

Edmunds did a story on GM 0% and said that even with that, the total cost of ownership was higher than that of an equal priced import at 6 or 7%. Then there is the "rules"...you make one payment late and suddenly you no longer have 0%. One mess up and you get to pay credit card rates on a car loan.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Glad you are returning to the light. Thought we might lose you to the darkside... We have five Hondas my family; every car we own... And no, we don not have any relationship/deal/etc. to the company..

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

It's a damn shame that it has come to this in the American car industry. It takes fire sale sale pricing and employee connections to even get people to briefly consider buying domestic.

We spend premium $$$ for US made (or branded) bicycles, computers and clothing, but the US cars are considered second rate (with the exception of cars like the Z06 Corvette, Ford F-series, Chrysler 300 and some of the new Cadillacs).

It's little things that are done poorly. For example, the Corvette windshield-washer fluid "button" was easy to hit when hitting the turn signal lever. Do you have any idea how angry this made Corvette owners, many of whom don't drive their cars if there is rain in the forecast within like a 200 mile radius. Windshield washer fluid leaves streaks and water spots. If you spend all day waxing and buffing your car, accidentally spraying it with washer fluid is going to be very annoying. Same thing with the Caddilac CTS V-Spec. I drove one. The parking brake was a foot-pedal. This made resting your foot on the dead-pedal when not using the clutch basically impossible, and it also just seems wrong not to have a hand-brake. This is a luxury sports car, that comes standard in stick, so the handbrake is important. It's lack of attention to details like this, on the cars that should be setting the tone for the whole line, that are indicative of an overall problem. The list goes on and on. Using the same bumper on the Ford Taurus and Jag XKE (needless to say Jag owners were not happy about having their car mistaken for a Taurus...).

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

the unions are killing american car companies. they have products speced to the bottom line, and quality is sacrificed.

i for one will never ever in my life ever own another GM car. i had a pontiac grand prix that cost me a handsome bundle. funny, all the thing did was sit--i drove it less than 5 thousand miles a year. but it was in the garage constantly, and it wasn't even 4 years old.

i know several other pontiac owners, all of them had trouble. my transmission specialist told me that he towed alot of pontiacs and alot of buicks. (and yes, the transmission was such a piece of shit that i had to find a specialist to fix it all the time).

it's a shame, but the unions in american car companies have done it to themselves...they have nearly put themselves out of business.

the only reason why i drive a Jag is because my brother in law works for Ford. my husband and i had a major fight over not buying a Ford product (i didn't want to). So, i found a good deal at Jag, it's a nice car...but after all i've been through i'm happy to have a lease so i can unload it in 2 years. at this point, i'm so disinterested in cars, lol.

Kittycat,

How is it the unions fault that GM put a poorly designed transmission in your Pontiac?

Paul

Because unions have driven up the labor costs so much. It would cost GM a lot more than Honda to build an Accord because of labor cost (especially retirees, etc. who don't even add anything to the car). In order to have cars at the same price point, something has to give, options, and/or quality.

it would be interesting to know that for every retired GM union member how many workers there have to pay for that retirees healthcare and pension.

unions cost a fotune, they basically make a company (like GM) unable to compete. since the union cost so much, they have to spec down to the bare bones their product.

money goes to retirees NOT the product line. that is the problem with unions and is why it translates to shitty transmissions.

Not really the unions "fault"...the companies do have to agree to terms...

But yeah...incredibly unwise pension plans (extreme shortterm thinking) and health care guarantees mean domestic cars cost much more to make. American car companies will not sacrifice the 'feature list' so its quality that inevitably takes the hit.

To their credit, they have made some good progress on getting a handle on pensions and healthcare.

ot

Rising pension and healthcare for retirees is not unique to the United Auto Workers. Social Security and even the small 50 person company I am a part of face the same problem. The improved standard of living that generous union benefits like paid healthcare have conspired to increase the lifespan of our population. Now we have a lot of old people expecting to have a happy retirement. European countries are faced with this too.

For years auto executives agreed to generous union contracts. It was cheaper to settle and avoid a bad bottom line for that year. The heavy investment in automation, robotics and research and development needed to keep up with the world was often put off by management to maintain the bottom line and get those big rock star bonuses.

I do think the days of the comfortable middle class lifestyle that unionized manufacturing workers have come to expect is going away manufacturers have discovered hords of workers in other parts of the world that will do the dirty work for less.

Anyway, I think this is a global shift in manufacturing not limited to Detroit and the United Auto Workers Union. The UAW may share the blame for the bad transmission in your Pontiac but it's not all their fault.

The unions are certainly a problem, but the management is equally to blame. You would think that the companies would have learned from the 70s not to ignore the fuel efficient market. But history repeats itself and once again Detroit became too dependent on big heavy vehicles and completely left the fuel efficient market to the Japanese automakers. There is nobody but management to blame for their lack of foresight.

But the Autoworkers union basically had more power than the companies in these situations. If the company wouldn't agree to the unions demands they would strike or threaten too, which would shut down production and cost the company even more money than giving in.

The unions are now finally seeing the light (after GM allowed the unions to hire their own auditor to review GM's books) and are starting to back off on some of their demands. How bad do things have to be for that to happen?

no, it's not all the union's fault. it's also the fault of crappy management with short sided thinking. in today's marketplace car manufacturers with UAW in place have the impossiblity to be competitive. it's a dying industry.

also funny that GM top execs have something like a 1000% more pay over a floor union worker. this is noteworthy because Toyota execs don't have that much of a percentage increase in income compared to floor workers. hmmm...

I'm a bit of a car ho and have owned cars from almost every country that sells cars in the US(except Italy, France and Korea).

As far as reliability goes, my US cars have been among the most reliable. In fact a couple of them took tremendous amounts of abuse. The worst cars I have owned have been European.

Of the 2 cars I own now (2003 MINI Cooper and 2004 Ford Explorer), the MINI gets babied, and thoroghly maintained. The Ford gets used, abused and gets only the oil changes and scheduled maintenance. Despite this disparity, we have had zero porblems with the Ford, while the MINI has an issue almost every other month. This has been the same scenario throughout my car ownership experiences

I still buy the pricier and troublesome European cars because they are more fun to drive, better designed and hold their resale better. It's almost worth it do deal with the occasional quirk to have a car that I like better.

My point is, American cars are a lot more reliable that what people say. Too bad they are not the most interesting.

[reply]I'm sorry, but I'll be throwing myself into every car thread for a few weeks. I love this Toyota FJ Cruiser. It is way more vehicle than I thought I was getting.[/reply]

I am really digging the FJ too.