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On "changing the mind"
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In the wake of AmyCO's thread on "lying" (actually, cheating on a partner), I have another interesting philosophical query.

Someone I know changes his mind a lot. Not "I feel like wearing the blue shirt -- no, the red one".... this is about loudly (ademantly!) professing attitudes, viewpoints, and actions and then later does the opposite. It gets really confusing to understand where the person stands.

Granted, I'm all for someone 'growing'. Someone can grow in a small period of time or over years. I'm even interested in someone telling me their mental processes how he/she went from 'point A' to 'point B'.

Here's a comparable: like someone insisting for years, "I hate the city: it's awful, it's dirty, it's smelly, there's no green grass..." and then moving into the city and saying "It's wonderful, I love the crowds, the clutter is charming, and who needs grass anyway?"

This person is not the first one I've seen to make 180-degree stance changes. The ODD part is, that when these people are asked, "Hmm, you had a different opinion before", they get defensive about what they said in the past -- to the point of real anger. I've several times (from several people) say to me, "Why are you telling me what I said in the past? There is no connection between the past and the present!"

(what? no connection between the past and the present... what about the person him/herself?)

Once again for clarity, I understand that people GROW (and change)!

But what's this about their anger and defensiveness for the process? And do these people realize that others may be affected by their changes of mind, and even a little explanation helps?

My point is about how to understand the true character of a person, if everything, (EVERYTHING!), is subject to 180-degree changes - even the previous changes.

1) Is this just ME [being anal] wanting the thru-line of "Here is how I changed my mind...?"

2) Do people just not like talking about their mental processes (point A went to point B)?

3) Are people just EMBARRASSED about [publicly] changing their mind, and being reminded that they haven't had this new idea forever? Is that why the hostility?

4) Do these people realize that doing 180-degree changes confuses people around them?

Lauren

PS:
Here's something I just remembered:
The two main people I am reflecting on (about being mind-changers) BOTH say, "I hate change! Human being hate change!" yet get defensive about changing their minds frequently.



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
Last edited by: Fitnesscoach: Jul 3, 06 5:32
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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Lauren,

This is interesting to me in that I know very few people who change their minds all of the time (at least about important stuff). Truly, I do know some but I try to distance my self from them because I perceive them as flaky. Most of the people I know, at least professionally, are the complete opposite. They make a decision and that is that, and you will never get them to move off of it. In fact, the harder you try the more entrenched they become.

My answers to your questions are as follows:

1. Is this just ME [being anal] wanting the thru-line of "Here is how I changed my mind...?"
I think it is just YOU, or people like YOU. What I mean is, that you (and I only know you from ST) seem to be very concerned with the journey (and rightly so in my opinion). So the process of arriving someplace (or a decision) matters to you. Rest assured, not everyone feels this way.

2. Do people just not like talking about their mental processes (point A went to point B)?

Yes, I think a lot of people are guarded about how they think. Maybe they are unconsciously afraid that there is a flaw with their logic or something, and by exposing that they will be subject to criticism. Deep down they probably know they are wishy-washy.

3. Are people just EMBARRASSED about [publicly] changing their mind, and being reminded that they haven't had this new idea forever? Is that why the hostility?

I think that our society puts a premium on people who know what they want and stand solidly behind good decisions. I don't mean to say that this is always good. If you believe something that is fine. Sometimes if you change your mind, especially if you were solidly in another school of thought, the process of how you changed your mind is important. Was the flaw your previous thought process, or is it the current one? Shoot, maybe they are both wrong!!!

4. Do these people realize that doing 180-degree changes confuses people around them?
I don't think they care. This is why I try to stay away from these sorts.

Bernie

______________
"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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Lauren, this is certainly not personal, but there is a part of me that is actually enjoying a woman complaining about how she can't understand what is going through a person's head. :-)


"I can endure more pain than anyone you've ever met. That's why I can beat anyone I've ever met." Steve Prefontaine, Without Limits
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Re: On "changing the mind" [slowbern] [ In reply to ]
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Wow, Thanks, Bernie. Great full response!

"So the process of arriving someplace (or a decision) matters to you. Rest assured, not everyone feels this way. .... Yes, I think a lot of people are guarded about how they think. Maybe they are unconsciously afraid that there is a flaw with their logic or something, and by exposing that they will be subject to criticism. Deep down they probably know they are wishy-washy."

That's quite interesting. I never think about that 'deep down they know they may be wishy washy...' thing. I guess I was never worried about changing my mind because I'm always so honest about knowing THERE IS "a process" to changing the mind.

Additionally, I don't think 'changing the mind' is necessarily wishy-washy. I think it is about GROWING, seeing new things in a new light. That's why I advocate "knowing your journey" to friends and clients; there's STRENGTH is understanding oneself.

Sure, maybe there is a flaw in their original logic, but experience has always meted (sp?) out the flaws, which may be why they've changed the mind in the first place.

THANK YOU for saying that i may be different for wanting to know what the person's journey is/was. That actually helps alot to know that my [simple] viewpoint truly IS different.

Lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Bluefan75] [ In reply to ]
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"there is a part of me that is actually enjoying a woman complaining about how she can't understand what is going through a person's head. :-) "

Hahahaha! (No offense taken at all! It's funny!)
I have this mantra I've said in relationships: "I can't read your mind. Can you tell me what you are thinking?"

That's why we have COMMUNICATION: to shortcut the mind-reading process (which never works anyway). How many times does a person (maybe a woman, maybe a man) profess to have an idea about you, and insists on its validity. Then they go about acting on that idea -- when it wasn't even true.

Thoughts are not 'real': they are only "thoughts". We can act on thoughts, but they may be false. I can 'decide' that you are a green-haired alien masquerading as a triathlete, but it doesn't make the "thought" factual. People are constantly thinking up 'thoughts' which they apply to others.

I am the opposite (I hope). I ASK. My first words might be, "What are your thoughts about that?" or "How did you arrive at that idea?" These are 'open-ended' questions. These allow (I hope) for the other person to freely describe his or her "point A to point B". How many arguements can be avoided if people simply asked, "what are you thinking about this subject?"

In the case of the mind-changing people, I have usually asked, "You said 'this thing' before. You say 'this other thing' now. What prompted you to change your mind?"

This seems pretty basic. Maybe for some people it feels like an attack. In actuality, it's just seeking to understand the person better; you know, like intimacy (or something like it ;).

Example:
If someone suddenly went into multisport from being a couch-potato. It's a decision based on health, or boredom of the sedentary lifestyle, or the pronouncement (from a doctor) of upcoming death, or mid-life reassessment, or even frustration of being obese. That's not something that's "I just changed my mind"; this is a reassessment that 'what I was doing wasn't working, so I did a new thing'.

To me, the BEST part of mind-changing is the process: that's the REAL growth!!

Maybe Slowbern is right: maybe someone doesn't want to admit out-loud 'my original way wasn't working'... so that another person (me?) asking about the process is simply a confirmation that he HAD an original (ill-functioning) way.

Ack. Geez. Accept, people :) Life is about change -- especially if it's about realizing a better way to do things.

Wow. Good stuff :)

Lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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"2) Do people just not like talking about their mental processes (point A went to point B)?
3) Are people just EMBARRASSED about [publicly] changing their mind, and being reminded that they haven't had this new idea forever? Is that why the hostility?"

It may be nothing more complicated than these people realize their 180 degree turn around for no apparent reason can reasonably construed as flaky. They did not think to be caught or noticed and someone pointing it out causes a defensive reaction. Nobody likes to be 'ridiculed'.... especially to our feminine counterparts our male 'constructive criticism' is just so much 'irritating ridicule'.
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Re: On "changing the mind" [kangaroo] [ In reply to ]
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"They did not think to be caught or noticed and someone pointing it out causes a defensive reaction. Nobody likes to be 'ridiculed' "

Good point! Even if someone isn't ridiculing the changing person, it might feel uncomfortable anyway.

Maybe that changing person is already feeling uncomfortable about the first stance he (or she) took; thus he/she changed in the first place. Then this 'ridicule' may actually be coming from inside HIMSELF (herself)!

Wow. Interesting. "Shadow syndrome".

GREAT suggestion! Thanks.

Lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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I like to change my mind for recreational purposes. I enjoy being unpredictable, especially with my wife. She is so predictable, finite, controlled etc. that I enjoy the look on her face when I deviate from her daily schedule for me. For example, her schedule for me today will probably look like:

work 7-10

go for run 10-11

work 11-12

lunch 12-12:30

work 12:30 - 2

come 2:00 home since it is a pre-holiday

do various things around the house

glass of wine at 6

dinner 6:30 (sharp!)

sit around and watch TV

So, what I might do is change the schedule a little

work 7:00 - 10:00

10:00 sex

10:03 run

11-2 disappear to Home Depot/bike shop with no cell phone

Work 2-4

Bike ride til 6

dinner and read a book

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: On "changing the mind" [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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"So, what I might do is change the schedule a little
work 7:00 - 10:00
10:00 sex
10:03 run"

Well, my professional opinion is that you will get more happiness from your wife about the deviated schedule if you gave more than 3 minutes for sex. Just MHO ;) ... I think sex is a great emotional lubricant

Lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
Last edited by: Fitnesscoach: Jul 3, 06 8:46
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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That's her preference. a 2 hour block would suit me fine ;-)

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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Additionally, I don't think 'changing the mind' is necessarily wishy-washy. I think it is about GROWING, seeing new things in a new light.

I think it's wishy-washy.

It sounds to me that if someone comes 180-degrees on issues (not minor ones like what clothes to wear) they really do not know what they stand for, they just loudly proclaim what they are "feeling" at the moment.

I have a core belief in living simply. My wife and I do not own a car, we commute by bicycle, we do not use AC (it was in the house we bought) etc., etc. Our core value is in conservation and living simply so if one of us suddenly wanted to buy a large house with 2 new SUV's, it would violate what we believe in and I would consider my actions wishy washy at best, and hypocritical at most.

I think people can mellow on ideas or smooth out some extremes but if you are completely changing your outlook you do not have conviction. They will react in anger if you bring it up because no one wants to believe they have no convictions. They are really angry with themselves because deep down they know they are wishy-washy and want to have stronger convictions. They will slowly learn to stop proclaiming their views on a lot of issues (to avoid further hypocrisy), which may be a good thing.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
Last edited by: Casey: Jul 3, 06 9:53
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Re: On "changing the mind" [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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That's her preference. a 2 hour block would suit me fine ;-)

LOL.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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"It sounds to me that if someone comes 180-degrees on issues (not minor ones like what clothes to wear) they really do not know what they stand for, they just loudly proclaim what they are "feeling" at the moment."

I agree about core values...

I also believe there ARE people who had been one way (maybe an alcoholic) then 'grow' to find a deeper core value (like being sober and promoting sober living).

The interesting thing is, these 180-degree-turning people actually turn from value-LESS living to value-FULL living. (The correlation would be like if you went from "living complicated" to "living simply"). So it it actually HAS been growth. No one has 'backslid'.

It's like saying after being a carnivore, "Wow, I suddenly realize I'm eating an animal, and I realize I don't want to participate in killing" - and becoming a vegetarian. This guy's core value was simply feeding himself, and now he adds a new core value: seeing animal life as important also.

Or after being a coach potato, "Wow, I'm fat and I don't want to die. This couch isn't helping me live. I'm getting off the couch"... this guy's core value hasn't changed ('living'), it's just that he realized that he wasn't TRULY living his value.

I agree about core values but I don't believe that we should hold tight to convictions which we discover are false or un-useful. Imagine the deathbed wills when the dying miserly man suddenly realizes he can't take it with him :) -- Scrooge-ified :)

Lauren

PS: Wow... you have no car... no AC... that's 100% commitment. Not many people do that. I myself prefer to live simpler than many Americans and have done so -- I keep my AC at 75-deg in the summer. I can choose my own level of commitment - it doesn't need to be completely spartan for me. Last year's 95-degree house was enough for me, thanks.



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
Last edited by: Fitnesscoach: Jul 3, 06 9:48
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I loved your edit:

"They will react in anger if you bring it up because no one wants to believe they have no convictions. They are really angry with themselves because deep down they know they are wishy-washy and want to have stronger convictions. They will slwoly learn to stop proclaiming their views on a lot of issues (to avoid further hypocrisy), which may be a good thing."

Thanks for putting that in. Very insightful!

Lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: On "changing the mind" [last tri in 83] [ In reply to ]
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LOL!

lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Fitnesscoach] [ In reply to ]
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Lauren,

I was thinking some more about this throughout the day because I knew there was something more here, I just couldn't put my finger on it until I read this response from you:

I also believe there ARE people who had been one way (maybe an alcoholic) then 'grow' to find a deeper core value (like being sober and promoting sober living).

And then I had it.

I think that people should be allowed to change and that it is even good in many cases. I used to eat meat and be 255 pounds. Now I am a vegetarian and am 180 pounds. I think that is a good change.

I also think that we are a fairly conservative society in that we resist change. Even though we may give lip service to wanting it, I think more often (like I wrote earlier) that society puts a premium on people who can stand as sort of a bulwark. We embrace consistency. In fact, there are some people who physically get ill when faced with too much change.

The ironic thing is that there are people who make changes in their life, we can use your example of the alcoholic, who obviously make positive changes. But how many times do others look at these people as zealots and then completely ignore them? Do you think this is because they changed and society does not like change? I have a friend who has recently found Religion again after being an atheist for many years. Personally, I'm happy for him. His life is obviously richer because of this change. But I can tell you in all certainty that many of our common friends don't like the fact that he has changed his mind about Religion and really don't want much to do with him.

I guess there are many different ways to take this conversation. Sorry for taking the thread in such a different direction from simply changing your mind!

Bernie

______________
"Slowbern has always made astute observations."-Casey 03/10/2009
2013-2014 Detroit Lions---13-3 until proved otherwise.
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Re: On "changing the mind" [slowbern] [ In reply to ]
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"We embrace consistency. In fact, there are some people who physically get ill when faced with too much change. ...The ironic thing is that there are people who make changes in their life, we can use your example of the alcoholic, who obviously make positive changes. But how many times do others look at these people as zealots and then completely ignore them? Do you think this is because they changed and society does not like change?"

Yes. EXACTLY. This is part of the factor about changing which I wanted to explore when I wrote this thread -- just to get thoughts from people.

We can take your vegetarian choice: you may have many friends (a partner even) who may not have liked your switch to vegetarian. Yes, you may be fitter and healthier, but they may be thinking, "It's a pain to have Bernie eat with us, because he's going to take longer with the menu to find a suitable dish for himself, or can't eat at our favorite steak restaurant, etc". Depending on your home environment (wife/kids) this may have been a strain also.

It's not only 'the change' [itself], but what form the change entails. Are there new habits? New friends? New purchases? Avoiding old locations?

Yet, the change has done wonder for you. You are more aware of what food does in your body. Your body smells different while not eating meat. You probably make better overall choices in food because you make specific choices at all. You've lost weight incredibly! (yay!) Perhaps this new somatic awareness is what led you into tri in the first place...

For the alcoholic, the change to becoming sober may be "a good change", but meanwhile his drinking buddies see the newly-sober man as a liability. He doesn't like what they do on weekends (drink), he avoids where they hang out (bars and other heavy-drinking locations), and strangely enough, people who are sober actually want REAL activities and REAL conversation (because he's not drunk all the time so he can actually have these conversations): so his mannerisms change. What a 'horrible' thing for these buddies! (Yes, he soon will be seeking different --and probebly sober-- buddies)

People SHOULD be allowed to change and explore. Have you ever experienced when someone STOPPED you from doing something you really wanted to do? (Did someone say, "No, don't become a vegetarian"?) How will you know if you hit on an effective and healthy change (ie: like your vegetarian choice) unless you are 'allowed the room' to make the changes so they progress to the effective degree?

You are exactly right about people who make changes and others ignore (or ridicule) them. Your newly-spiritual friend is a great example. You didn't mention which religion he has embraced (it could be almost anything: Christian, Buddhism, yoga, anything) but the interesting part is that it is HIS path. Your common friends may be angry that he changed hi mind about religion -- but do they possibly think about the PROFOUND AND DIFFICULT changes he had to embrace INSIDE HIMSELF to go from being an athiest to finding a spiritual direction? The friends forget that it is hard to "unearth" the self we've all created. We've set layers and layers of convictions upon those opinions. It's not easy to put them aside... friends can be angry that he changed his mind, but when it comes down to it, it is HE who sleeps with himself at night, and wakes up to himself every day. Wait until they have a profound change of their own.

You mention that some people get physically ill when faced with too much change (stress) --- do you know that many depressions are caused from people who NEED TO CHANGE and WON'T? They feel 'stuck', 'helpless', 'frustrated' (stop me when it sounds familiar to a depressed person). Granted, perhaps they are too much embracing their stuckness (this is unhealthy also) but in a society which embraces consistancy, these depressed people are too scared to make changes they need to make.

I spent the day thinking about what you said and the other people in this thread. I agree completely that the people I mentioned (about changing the mind) were doing many things, including "trying on" new changes they want to make. It's very important NOT to call attention to some of these changes (especially if they are quality changes) except to commend them. This can give the person room to explore the new changes himself/herself, to see if the changes feel right. (After all, it not about 'me' -- it's someone else's life).

So when I was saying to one person who was changing, "I thought you said xxx and yyy, and these were your convictions!", it was like your friends saying to your newly spiritual friends, "You said God didn't exist!!"...

...this created a contentious environment where the person was forced to look BACK on ideas he is already discarding, and possibly see himself in his 'old skin', maybe not liking who he saw...

... instead, a better way to handle this changes is to watch the person and say, "Tell me about your current ideas. I'm interesting in hearing". This is a supportive environment which allows the person room to explore on his own, NOT feel ridiculed, and doesn't draw attention to his previous choices.

The point is, that while we place a premium on 'consistancy' (that bulwark), we also seek CONSTANT IMPROVEMENT. We went from riding horses to carriages to cars to airplanes... we went from cunieform writing to parchment to books to computers to Wifi. WOW...

...how many people do you know who hate computers because they are newfangled? Or won't use a cell phone unless they are forced to? Who refuse to understand MP3s... or digital camera... or other changes in life's technologies? They enjoy their own Luddite stance! They are stating their own values of "consistancy" within their OWN PERIMETERS, which actually don't reflect that the world does EVOLVE (change).

An alcoholic has his own Luddite stance: "I like drinking because it's what I have always done... it makes me feel better about my problems... and I get to be with my [drinking] friends". In his little drinking world, things stay the same. He can be 50 years old and still party (and live) like a 20-yr-old.

Thank you for the opportunity to explore this concept of "mind-changing". Yes, my friend who changes his mind may do a few extra 180-changes, but perhaps he created his first thoughts too quickly, and his "mind-changing" are actually the better-thought concepts. He just didn't like reflecting on his previous decisions because he was embarrassed by them, and, like another ST poster said, maybe he'll eventually stop proclaiming his first thoughts so easily so that when he finally settles on a concept that works over the long haul, he can then be proud of himself.

Wow.
How awesome is this exploration??

Thank you!

Lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Casey] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know that I would call it wishy washy but rather along the lines you are talking about, I'd say it is someone who spouts off on subjects about which they know very little.

If you can solidly spount off that you hate city living, you probably have never tried it and don't really know what it's like.

Same thing about living simply without a car, or exercise, etc etc. If you don't know much about it it is easy to say that it is totally silly or stupid etc.
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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I'd say it is someone who spouts off on subjects about which they know very little.

That's a good point. I certainly have met a lot of people like that in my life.

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: On "changing the mind" [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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"someone who spouts off on subjects about which they know very little.
....If you don't know much about it it is easy to say that it is totally silly or stupid etc. "

GREAT point. Some people (probably me included) THINK they know more than they actually know about a subject. Therefore, a 20% knowledge does not make a wise opinion.

Lauren



-------------------------

Lauren Muney
certified physical fitness trainer
certified health coach
wellcoach
http://www.physicalmind.com

There is no escape from your life... solve the problems and get on with it.

"Just tell her you love her and you think she kicks ass" ~AndrewinNH

"I'm moving [Lauren] to guru status" ~Last Tri in 83
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