I have spent a little time in Turkey as part of a NATO force. From what I picked up from our intel guys and the natives I was able to talk to, it boils down to two reasons.

(1) Kemal Ataturk, the "Father of Modern Turkey" knew that if Turkey was to thrive it must have a secular, democratic government. The people still largely revere his memory. Other Muslim/Middle Eastern countries do not have such a non-religious role model as does Turkey in Ataturk.

(2) By nature of geography, Turkey is more cosmopolitan than the rest of the Middle East. I saw vey few women in full garb except when we were out in the boonies. Many of the women in the city were very European-looking, with blond hair and all. I don't think the majority of Turks want to become more like Saudi Arabia.

so having blond haired women is the secret ingredient to democracy. :)

so having blond haired women is the secret ingredient to democracy. :)

You don't really think the golden fleece was a ram's skin do you? The truth is that Jason and the Argonauts were on the prowl for some blonde p%$$! It has been prized ever since.

(1) Kemal Ataturk, the "Father of Modern Turkey" knew that if Turkey was to thrive it must have a secular, democratic government. The people still largely revere his memory. Other Muslim/Middle Eastern countries do not have such a non-religious role model as does Turkey in Ataturk.

Well, that and every time the religious groups got any power, they were brutally suppressed by the army until very recently.

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So, are you saying it's sort of like Saddam being in power in Iraq and squelching the religious groups?

So, are you saying it's sort of like Saddam being in power in Iraq and squelching the religious groups?

Hey, don't be giving the administration any ideas. Iran and North Korea will present some real problems and we may be looking to beat up on another Muslim country to ensure our freedom.

I can see it now. At Thanksgiving we will be eating mashed potatoes, gravey and "Freedom" and "Freedom Breast" on sandwiches. Now, all we have to do is find it on a map, make up some stories about hidden weapons, use Greece as a base and we are good to go.

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Funny Casey....

But, it seems to me the only way to keep the Religious Zealots in check is to rule with an iron fist. At least in that geographic area. I guess the difference is that Turkey knows how to play well with the rest of the world.

North Korea - Iran: I don't have a very good feeling in my stomach when I think of what may happen if the future unfolds like I think it's going to. A conflict with either of those countries will not be a good thing. A conflict with both and everybody who has no first hand knowledge of military may get their chance whether they want to or not.

first of all I have to admit I am not knowledable on the subject either ;)

1) State and religion is seperated

2) Schools and religion is seperated, religious education is optional not mandatory

3) Military and religion is seperated

Not exactly, in that there is a legitimate democratic system of government, but the army has staged 3 or 4 coups in the last 50-60 years, and I guess you could draw some parallels with the suppresion of the Kurds.

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From my own personal observations of Turkey (limited to a few visits) and Saudi Arabia (where I reside) I think you're on the right track.

Turkey is not ruled by Sharia. Alcohol is freely available, women are largely uncovered and their rights relatively unrestricted, no particular fuss is made at prayer times. I would like to have been in Turkey for Ramadan to make that comparison.

Yet, Turks consider themslves Muslim, as do the vast majority of Indonesians. When you add the populations of these two nations together, you get something on the order of 300 million Muslims living under relatively stable, at least nominally representative governments.

This ought to be food for thought for the crowd that thinks Islam and representative government are mutually exclusive.

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Reverisco!

Not different at all! How do I know? Well, I was born there, lived about 30 years, went to school there etc. ;)

We do consider ourselves as muslims but because of the way we live other muslim countries do not coinsider us real muslims. however if you look at the east and west of the country it is totally different. Where the east is more conservative and west is more european.

the only problem with the elections is, multi party system. Each election there are 15-16 political parties. Only 2 of these parties are islamic religious parties and the rest is divided 20% of the votes goes to islamic parties and 80% is divided into 13-14 parties, now you do the math. There have been more islamic view parties appeared but they were all joined together before the elections for "not dividing" the votes, on the otherhand other party politicians try to kill eachother for a single vote.

yes, everything is free, alcohol etc. Here are some other interesting facts that may suprise people: We do not have a drinking age! most eastern and mediterrenean beaches are topless (why do 70 year old german tourists urge to bare themselves!!!) there is no cencorship on broadcast TV due to nudity, but TV channels can get upto 1 week closing if they broadcast any offensive negative ads.

My last visit to Turkey was around Sarikamis, though we spent a few days in Istanbul before we left. Previous to that I had been in Erzerum and up in the Caucasus mountains, and only entered the occasional small village in the foothills.

I was deeply impressed with energy and enthusiasm of the people I met. I feel certain that great things will come from Turkey in the future, and that it will serve as a significant bridge of understanding between the Islamic world and the West.

Your comment that some Muslim states do not regard you as Muslim reminds me of a humorous event here. An Irani-American friend of mine was coming to Riyadh from the States. On his (English language)visa application, where he was asked to state his religion, he put Muslim, and under sect, he put Shi'a.

When he got his visa back (in Arabic) his religion had been entered as "non-Muslim!"

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Reverisco!

"so having blond haired women is the secret ingredient to democracy. :) "

Don't laugh!

Yes, you would be surprised how NOT ridiculous your comment is when you're referring to the Muslims and Islam. Why do you think Turkey has been a bombing target ground of the fundamentalists as frequently as it has in recent times? Same with Jordan.

Yes that whole religion and the attitudes and situations that come out of it are frikkin ridiculous, (suck)so much so that what seemingly seems ridiculous like the thing you say about blond hair or any exposure of anything feminine in even the most subtle way, as well as many other things we take as normal can represent the difference between democracy and an Islamic state.

"yes, everything is free, alcohol etc. Here are some other interesting facts that may suprise people: We do not have a drinking age! most eastern and mediterrenean beaches are topless (why do 70 year old german tourists urge to bare themselves!!!) there is no cencorship on broadcast TV due to nudity, but TV channels can get upto 1 week closing if they broadcast any offensive negative ads. "



And when was the last time the 'real' Muslims bombed you 'straying' from the faith Muslims at your beach resorts? As if the earthquakes you had to face weren't enough. Wonder if that was construed as punishment from above from being too liberal as well?

Yes we do need more forward thinking Islam populated countries like Turkey to emerge and we should strive toward that. The world would be a much better place for Muslims and non-Muslims except those Muslims would no longer be 'real' Muslims anymore.

And what's so funny about your Shi'ite friend and his visa? All I see is a typo by someone who perhaps doesn't have a full grasp of Arabic. I don't get it.

The humor is that the Saudis stamped his visa that way because the Sunnis consider the Shia to be heretics.



If the US stamped his visa it would be in English, the Iranians, Farsi. Arabic came from Saudi Arabia.

OK I get it, it was on the Saudi side.

Rather than being humorous I think it's sad when you consider what they have done and are still doing to each others civillians from Iraq to Pakistan. They consider each other heretics and consider us infedels not worthy of any more consideration than a miserable vermin animal that pollutes their proper devout way of life. For those naive this may give some insight into what motivates them to do the things they do. Just another yet again really negative aspect of this religion. It's archaic and in it's true form spawns cruel destructiveness because of it's inability to assymilate to the realities of this day and age.

This problem recognized for what it is needs to be addressed accordingly.