Could there be any relationship between a large dog and a large ape?

Bob Sigerson

<Please give the guy a little slack. I am amused, though, that the guy who spent a month trashing Cervelo took a LONG time to get banned, but the Dane earned instant ejection! :) Must have been the blond hair and blue eyes. :), >



At first, the grammer and spelling made me suspicous, and then a friends special equipment and knowledge of the wonderful world of internet tracing confirmed my suspicion. GreatDane is indeed OrangUtan (i won't reveal what switchboard revealed about our friend, that indeed would not be very legal). I guess i have to start posting as GreatDane??? now.

Classic

whack the monkey x 2

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"on your Left"

Uh, well, NOT!

The only basis for justifying what Dan did is this is his forum. With a little overworked reaction thrown in, perhaps. The Dane gave no misleading information. His conclusion was utterly without merit, and as more than one poster has noted, he would have quickly been brought to task.

IF the Dane had said something a little stronger, like: "All Cervelo forks are trash because one broke," then Dan could have kissed him goodbye without a trace of misapprehension from me. But, I would have left the guy on board anyway and let the other guys trash him! Sheezh! We have plenty of folks who know what they are talking about when it comes to bike technology (Including you!)

Orang was another story. He should have been colored gone after about the 2nd or 3rd post. He was just throwing trash around. Being stupid is one thing, being venal is an entirely different animal. Orang was being nasty. The Dane simply lept to the wrong conclusion. I do not think there was any "sub-text" to the Dane's comment.

Having said all that I'm not upset in the least. This is an ongoing enterprise and growth will occur. And, we shouldn't expect perfection. Dan's just another human doing the best he can and doing it a hell of a lot better than anyone else out there.

Just my .0002 Euro.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

thats what Ben in Fla post confirms from an IP trace

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"on your Left"

If he has a static IP that's possible. Without a static IP you'd have to rely on an email addy or resort to supposition. What IP info did you give your friend, Ben?

But, I wouln't be surprised. Orang was no monkey (technically true), but a snake.

-Robert

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"How wonderful it is that nobody need wait a single moment before starting to improve the world." ~Anne Frank

"you disagree with me pretty much every step along the way"

Well I certainly do on this Dan, the way that you're playing dictator and turning the forum into a "totalitarian state".

Cerveloguy,

You have a lot of good posts; but, IMHO you were out of line on the above. I vote for Dan on this on. And, if this is really is Utan back as another character you'll have to admit that Dan's insight (as opposed to incite) is quite uncanny.

Best wishes to all.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Have to add to this..whoever the guy is, he only posted a story from team website. to pull it so quickly, and especially after Francois' reasoned reply was pretty outrageous IMO. I bought a Cervelo mainly/solely because of the good write ups on here. Would hate to think only positive posts were allowed. How come posts deriding PCs were never pulled, even though they were much less fact based than this one.

Dan, it's your forum, but personally I've gone from being a Cervelo owner who knows that shit happens and wouldn't blame the company for this incident to one who's pretty pissed off that he's not allowed to make his own judgements - and that turnaround was not down to Cervelo. Appreciate you were acting as you saw fit, but have to say I was pretty disappointed. Anyway, split milk etc. :peace:

I don't see anything wrong with pulling inflamatory posts, preventing "trial by internet" or whatever else but Gerard should be careful about using his relationship with Dan and his status as a frequent and (deservedly) respected poster to take unsubstantiated jabs at his competitors.

"I have learned an unbelievable amount about the testing that a lot of other companies do, just because we wanted to see where we stand. All I can say is that with a lot of them (not all), I would have a lot of trouble falling asleep at night if I worked for them."


The fact that Gerard does not specifically name names is cold comfort. We saw a situation yesterday or the day before where someone made a comment that an "unnamed" former Ironman champion won using performance enhancing drugs. It took about five minutes for another poster to deduce who he was pointing at and the original poster was left having slandered someone he later backpedaled and claimed he thought was clean (not quite sure how that works but whatever).

There are two ways for a business to market itself: fight for a bigger share of the existing pie or help the pie grow. The editorial philosophy of this site seems to be the latter: what's good for the sport as a whole is good for each of the businesses (and businessmen) who make their living serving that sport. I think that is an admirable philosophy and I think its a large part of the basis for Dan's dislike of "trial by internet."

I don't know what Gerard's personal philosophy on the point is but his post and some of the banner ads he's run on the page suggest that he subscribes to the former school of thought; that he thinks that his company's growth is a result of market share it has wrestled away from other manufacturers. I don't think that's true at all; I think Cervelo has grown in large part by building a world-beater entry-level bike that it can sell to the legions of new triathletes entering the sport every year, but the attitude, or even the perception that a big player in the bike market has that attitude, is not a good thing for anyone.

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Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

DANG!...so what I'm seeing is that I've seen the Dan E. of "old" raising his mighty gavel once again? Crap...and here I just thought he was getting polite and politically correct in his "milder" years ;-)

...even though it took some of us a few years to "acquire" the taste, some of us also appreciate the days of old i.e. like at a CABDA bike show in Chicago..what?...5 years ago?...when Dan was giving his seminar on QR/tri-bikes in general and was all over some of these roadie punks who attempted to come in and discount/bash his theories without any data, or logical theory (and then attempt to educate HIM on the ways of all things regarding bikes).

Yeah, you may have jumped the gun on this one slowman...but good to see the king still controls his castle (by setting forth the rules which all must abide).

...now...isn't there some bonehead thing going on elsewhere like with the WTC, USAT, ITU, etc. that you can expound upon now that you're in the mood? ;-)

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Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

At first I thought Dan was out of line in removing the thread. Protecting Cervelo from a discussion of broken fork would seem to me worse than having Gerard and others on the board respond.

But Dan did nothing to stop this discussion. If he wanted to hide the issue, this thread would not exist. And this is the most widely read thread since I've been reading this forum.

Gerard and others have responded. Everyone knows that a CSC fork broke in a race.

And everyone knows that DISINGENUOS attacks on companies will not be tolerated.

Dan smelled a rat and he pointed it out to show everyone what a rat looks like. He didn't bury the rat.

Criticism of companies and products is allowed. People write all the time that they would never buy PowerCranks or Computrainers. Malicious comments are not.

GreatDane logged on and created a new account in the middle of the night. I don't know if Dan thought it was Orang, but as others have said and as his spelling indicates, it probably is. But Dan saw that the intent was not to ask a legimate question, but to spread dirt.

Deciding what is a fair comment and what isn't is a tough call. But maintaining a standard of fair discussion is important. As this thread shows, fair discussion is also a topic for debate.

It is too easy to spread malicious and unaccountable information on the internet so I welcome a forum with intelligient moderation. In this regard fewer anonymous posters also holds people to be more accountable and responsible for what they say.

   Well, one thing is for certain here. We all (except maybe GreatDane) agree that one broken fork does not constitute ANYTHING of consequence, especially in this instance. If indeed this was Orang reincarnated, well, my hat's off to Dan even if I still disagree w/his method.

What do you expect from "cerveloguy". He is a self proclaimed flaming liberal (I read this on another thread). It is standard procedure among that set to call anyone who disagrees with them a "nazi" in lue of a logical arguement.

Slick, I agree. If I were running this thing the first person to get zapped would the one who called me a "nazi." I think Dan shows great restraint.

Bob Sigerson

Sig and Slick, let me ask you both something - Did either of you even see the original post? If not, then I rest my case.

Cerveloguy implies that by removing the post that ST has become a Totalitarian state influenced in part by Germany of the 20's to 40's.

Meanwhile at the other end of the spectrum apparently all "flaming liberals" fall in to the set of calling people "Nazi's" when they encounter someone that disagree's with them.......

Seems to me that neither of those two points of view are that far removed from each other, both gross generalizations and both completely missed the point that when in Rome you do as.............I'll let you guess.

Dans site, Dans money, Dans time, if Dan dont like it Dan I think is probably well within his rights as owner, facilitator and creator to remove it............

you know this has really been a disappointing day here on this forum. First we have one regular poster accusing Dan of "Nazi" like tactics, then we have another thread where we have people accusing others of being or not being liberals, bragging about how much they make and the size house they live in. What gives?

My own opinion if anyone cares, this is Dan's sandbox and he can make the rules, any rules that he cares too and enforce them anyway he so pleases. If we don't like the sandbox rules, we are free to go find another sandbox, or make our own. I can't go into my doctors office and put up posters that they may not like or agree with, he/she'll have them taken down, it is their right, even though this is still a free country.

I used to participate a lot in another forum (duathlon.com) but that forum went downhill because there wasn't enough moderation. On that forum, just about every subject turns into a name calling exercise. I now very rarely post there. I sure hope this forum doesn't turn that way. I doubt that it will but today is a step in that direction.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

For my last $.02 on this particular thread all I can say is that if Orangutan and Great Dane are the same troll as Ben in FL claims, then the guy is a genuis to be able to cause this much discord with just one post. A dubious one, but one just the same.

...this thread is disappointing indeed... but, sometimes it takes a good disagreement to understand the value what new groups are all about. This is Dan's domain... it is both a burden and a blessing.

Proper conduct of public opinion is expected to be based upon private advantage. Whether the original post was correct and informative or simply troll bait is defined by owner of the sight. Whether I like it or not... However, I believe it is also acceptable behavior to show my distaste for such censorship. But, that is where my influence would stop. I believe that Dan understands that and would expect no less from his posters. Unfortunately, perhaps his decision wasn't his best or perhaps it was also justified. I'm not going to judge.

However, if I have to pick a side... I would fall firmly in the middle. Neither side should be considered completely wrong or right. But I think it would be a safe assumption to say that only the supressed words are considered dangerous. On the other hand, the surest way of eliminating censurship is to correct ourselves. Judgement is a by-product which is made based upon the information Dan had a the time. If he saw justice in removing the post - so be it. If those feel cheated by such removal - so be it. It's fair to give both sides the benefit of the doubt. Fortunately (or Unfortunately), Dan defines who receives the benefit of the doubt. ...Now, that kind of responsability must really suck sometimes - NO envy here.

FWIW Joe Moya

Joe Moya

Exactly. People are anouncing they are liberals, others are Nazi's, they live in big houses and make lots of money...etc. I come here to learn more about triathlon from guys like Mike P, Dan, Francois, Gerard, Gordo ...etc, not to hear someone's personal political beliefs. Take that somewhere else , please. I don't annoy you with my politics.

Well stated. Andrewmc and Mike Plumb, I believe have made absolutely accurate assessments as well. This forum is the class of the field. It says a lot about the aggregate passion, intelligence, and experience of the regular posting entities, and Slowman as well.

But this is a forum. You shouldn't begin a thread or post a reply ON THE FORUM if you are ill equipped to deal with feedback. One particular Slowtwitcher has contributed a tremendous amount of excellent information, in my opinion, to date. However, his reaction to any opinion contrary to his own, or any questioning of his commentary, is to retort like a petulant child. If you can't deal with a forum's dynamic, don't post on the forum.

This is Dan's sandbox and he has let us in. Don't shit in his sandbox.

No, I did not, and, maybe it's just me, but I don't believe I know of any more vile name to call a person or their actions than "nazi."

Bob Sigerson

what's the law's name that says there is a tacite argument that each time someone mentions 'nazi", or anything related to that, the thread stops and we move along.

let's move on to something more fun. Stuff breaks sometimes.
That's Dans' forum and he can do as he sees fit. In my home I can say "you can not use words with the letter p" If I see fit.