Well said. Cannot say I disagree it makes good sense.

Another line of thought is that if the post invasion was organized properly so as to counter these insurgencies before they got out of hand, people in general may not be so pissed.

And all this is after the fact. But this is the here and now. The question is what's best now, even IF a mistake was made.

"Being pro-USA and pro-Bush are two entirely different things."

I don't agree. The American people voted him in not once but twice. He is the elected leader by choice, so he and his administaration by and large represent America for the duration. Being anti-Bush and exagerating his faults and trying to put down his policies at every turn is in fact largely anti-American, whether it comes internally or externally.

Those on the extremists on the international scene who hate America and Bush aren't suddenly going to change to still hating America and loving the next President or vice versa.

Its at the very core of the American psyche, its who we are and what we stand for to question and be critical of our Government. We are a nation of dissenters.

The country you are describing resembles the totalitarian regiemes you pretend to detest.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Well if you are going to go that route, it bears mentioning that he didn't win the popular election the first go around and thus, he didn't represent a majority of Americans. Also, given his current approval ratings, I'd argue that the only reason he represents America is that he gets a four year run in the office. He's clearly not connecting with a majority of Americans right at the moment.

And while I'd submit that there are few, if any folks out there that would hate the US but like its President, I still believe it is rather easy to dissociate America, it's way of life, it's opportunities, etc. from its leadership. The things that people admire about America surely pre-date anything Bush or any President in recent memory has done.

The idea that being critical of policies as being un-American indicates, quite frankly, a very limited understanding of American culture/history. As a quick illustration, why is there an amendment re: freedom of speech and the press? This isn't the first time you have indicated your preferred approach to stifling opposing political voices. It remains a silly, bordering on dangerous idea, and certainly does not, in any way, reflect on or enhance the "American way".

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f/k/a mclamb6

Being pro-USA and pro-Bush are two entirely different things.



Exactly. And I think that my rejoinder to Matt didn't mention anything about Bush that defended him any manner. It's also no secret that I'm pro-U.S. above everything else. That would also be expected, given my two decades-plus of service in the U.S. military, so I always take exception to criticism of my country for the wrong reasons, which generally revolve around a personal dislike of the guy in the Oval Office. I felt the same way during the Clinton years, too.

T.

Well to put it in a nutshell, "You can't please all the people all of the time."

But you should treat as friends the friendly ones who at least have some semblance of the values you believe to be correct.

As for those who incorrigably hate you, have a moral or lack of moral standard that is instinctively deplorable to you and are bent on harming your citizens, you give them the big stick, as big a stick as it takes. This is the only thing these barbaric mentaliries understand, that's why they use this approach on each other. Other approaches simply have no impact and afford you no protection or minimizing of the threat.

Simplistic as this may be, at times the answer to unending complicated issues is the simple and basic truth.

1) "it bears mentioning that he didn't win the popular election the first go around and thus, he didn't represent a majority of Americans."

Then how did he get into office? I thought it was by a slim margin or am I wrong? Was it because of a miscount on the recount or a deliberate election fraud? If that Kerry had got in .... God would really-really be needed to bless America. That's just my opinion. At least I have a consistent one unlike him.

2) "Also, given his current approval ratings, I'd argue that the only reason he represents America is that he gets a four year run in the office. He's clearly not connecting with a majority of Americans right at the moment."

The Americans voted him in again after Iraq. So yes he does get another four year run. That's what the people gave him. Media induced approval ratings are a crock. I would hate to have America have a President who did things motivated by achieving good approval ratings. One of the things I really like about Bush is he does what he feels is best and doesn't falter because of things like approval ratings.

3) And while I'd submit that there are few, if any folks out there that would hate the US but like its President, I still believe it is rather easy to dissociate America, it's way of life, it's opportunities, etc. from its leadership. The things that people admire about America surely pre-date anything Bush or any President in recent memory has done.

Well internally you have the Mattins who definitely put down anything American and seem to rejoice at anything anti-American on the international stage. Obviously America is America and it's been around longer than ant single President. But at this present moment, right now it's the Bush Administration that has been running things for the last 6 years or so. And I guarantee he is 100% more uniquely American than any other leadership on this planet.

4) The idea that being critical of policies as being un-American indicates, quite frankly, a very limited understanding of American culture/history. As a quick illustration, why is there an amendment re: freedom of speech and the press? This isn't the first time you have indicated your preferred approach to stifling opposing political voices. It remains a silly, bordering on dangerous idea, and certainly does not, in any way, reflect on or enhance the "American way".

Yes I understand the 'total' free democratic culture of the United States of America. Whilst I really believe and endeer to the concept of this democratic system, I'm simply stating the major weakness. And this weakness is the tolerance of destructive incessant criticism by some individuals which are harmful to Americans and America and the rest of the free world. Simply put, given too many liberties, human nature is such that there will always be those who take advantage and abuse the privelege.

There are fair elections (this is actually a rare thing in the world), there is the limit of a 2 term office and there is Congress amongst a host of other mechanisms in the system to ensure democracatic adherence. Do we really need incessant, whining, aggressive anti any leadership activists diluting focus on the things that need to be taken care of in this kind of world stage we're living in today?

1) "Its at the very core of the American psyche, its who we are and what we stand for to question and be critical of our Government. We are a nation of dissenters."

No it's not. It's just a really dirty habit by some inconsiderate ingrates.You use the word 'dissenters' as if it is an honorouble cross to bear or sumpthin. That's really naive considering the big picture.

I guess many Americans just haven't been exposed. As the very applicable saying goes, "You won't know what you've got until it's taken away." Problem is in these times there are a growing number who are pretty determined to do just that.


2) "The country you are describing resembles the totalitarian regiemes you pretend to detest."

Wrong..... I'm all for full democratic elections without coruption with equal opportunity for anyone who wants to run. And I really despise totalitarian regimes of any sort who inevitably resort to high handed methods and expect the people to be their servants rather than serve the people's desires. I know because I came from and lived in one such place before and I have travelled and lived in several for business and work.

"Then how did he get into office?"

He won the Electoral College, but not the popular vote.

"The Americans voted him in again after Iraq."

However, as you already alluded to, the alternative was not all that attractive.

"And I guarantee he is 100% more uniquely American than any other leadership on this planet. "

Huh?

"Do we really need incessant, whining, aggressive anti any leadership activists diluting focus on the things that need to be taken care of in this kind of world stage we're living in today?"

Yes. That's how we make sure that the govt doesn't run away with everything. There always has to be someone questioning whoever is in office or in Congress. Sometimes it's just whining, but sometimes it uncovers or draws attention to a real problem that should be fixed. You have to take the bad to get the good.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Then how did he get into office? I thought it was by a slim margin or am I wrong? Was it because of a miscount on the recount or a deliberate election fraud? If that Kerry had got in .... God would really-really be needed to bless America. That's just my opinion. At least I have a consistent one unlike him.

When Bush beat Gore, Bush did not have a majority of the popular vote. Instead, he had a majority of the electoral college votes. The electoral college votes are the ones that matter in choosing a President. Typically, the people will vote in a given state and whichever candidate wins that state will win that state's electoral college votes. So, it is possible and has happened a few times that a person was elected President without winning the nationwide popular vote.

Hey what took you so long? -:)

Anyway either way he was still voted in first time. And second time you've still got a large proportion of the whole population that can run for office if they want to try. So he won by democratic elections.

1) "Yes. That's how we make sure that the govt doesn't run away with everything."

Yeah it's kind of funny how with all the shit going down worldwide, some are still so paranoid that the administration and congress and all the government agencies are so bent on running away with everything. Better check, they might just have run away with your undies!

2) "Sometimes it's just whining, but sometimes it uncovers or draws attention to a real problem that should be fixed. You have to take the bad to get the good."

Yes that's true. Unfortunately most of it is bad. If only there were some mechanics to filter off some of the bad that is not only irritating but downright undermining what the US needs to do to take care things and provide safety.

Thanks for the update on the electorial voting system in your country. All the same the people voted in the Bush team did they not? And he consolidated this by winning the second term.

Either way, it's kind of wierd in the USA and some Western countries how the people have such little respect for the leaders they themselves vote in. If one can't have some semblance of respect for their own leaders, isn't this some indication of a manisfestation of a social flaw as a result of all this overwhelming freedom and it's abuse? Of course as in this thread it's even worse because you've got people cheering on the likes of Hugo fucking Chavez and other low lifes because of their anti-American hatred stance.

Well nothing is perfect, especially when it involves humanity. The blurr of natural roles of the male and female, the proliferation and acceptance of homosexuality even in the legal sense, the highest divorce rates, the high drug abuse, the widespread use of guns and the problems that poses and all the other shit that seems to thrive in the USA, as well as the fad of attacking one's own leadership unecessarily. Is all this social dysfunction a result of over democratization?

Despite all this the foundations of the USA democracy and it's principles are fundamentally the best. Especially relative to other systems out there. The irony is the very people who live within this system and make up your country; some don't seem to grasp the full appreciation of it. Maybe a little moderation as with most things in life would make this democracy a much better one. I'm just on the outside looking in.

As an example all that freedom, freedom killed the UK being the super nation of the world that it was. Due to the over powering strength of the unions (freedom), the country and the people in general were often held to ransom. This being a huge contribution to economic woes this country has faced in recent years. A really unpragmatic social welfare system same as in parts of Europe ensures that many hard working folk need to pay for blood sucking able bodied youngsters who don't contribute a whole lot to their country but typically are more than prepared to take up the mantle in anti government activist demonstrations. Yes fighting it's internal cancer brought about by abuse of over democratiztion has been the bane of the UK.

Why do I mention this? Just to make a point that this total and unabated freedom of speech thing that so many of you so love and endeer to so much may be somewhat over rated. As with anything you can think of, extremes either way are very-very rarely good.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

As an example all that freedom, freedom killed the UK being the super nation of the world that it was. Due to the over powering strength of the unions (freedom), the country and the people in general were often held to ransom.

Just to make a point that this total and unabated freedom of speech thing that so many of you so love and endeer to so much may be somewhat over rated.

If Freedom is overrated, why did we go into Iraq to give them freedom?

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

Why do I mention this? Just to make a point that this total and unabated freedom of speech thing that so many of you so love and endeer to so much may be somewhat over rated.

I wish you would stop your incessant complaining:)

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You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008

I must incest you use the exceptable spelling of that word.

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You know, I could swear I read somewhere that the UK was brought down by the nationalistic, anti-colonialization sentiment around the world in the post-WWII era. Something about holding to outdated mercantilistic ideas and not having an actual economy outside of resource fleeced colonies in India and Africa.

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Increasing awareness for suffers of DGS (Diminished Gluteal Syndrome).

Mr. Chavez himself does not comply with signed contracts. There are a lot of oil companies that have invested billions of dollars in Ven. and now he wants to change all the contracts. Eventually he will nationalize all the oil production activity in his country and export all the oil to North Korea, Cuba etc.

Dude! you see that speck on the horizon, thats the boat, you missed it. Go back to being sick you made more sense.

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You call yourself a Christian, I call you hypocrite. You call yourself a patriot well, I think you're full of s**t

NeoCon by the Rolling Stones

A little moderation goes a long way and so does a little respect and refrain from abusing priveleges. By all means express ourselves if the need really arises and when it's crucial but otherwise we can save our opinions for the vote. Constant aggressive criticism over anything and everything, and going out of the way to belittle the leadership at every turn including cheering on foriegn scumbag enemies is counter productive and logically is un-American despite what you say about a nation of dissenters.

Of course freedom is better. But not in it's unabatted uncontrolled completely free to do and say whatever one likes form. I'm all for freedom above all else as long as what you do doesn't impact the next guy negatively.

Yes this will be good for Iraq and more so for the USA and the rest of the world to secure strategic balance for our side within that crucial region and also the huge not so much physical but moral and mental victory over Muslim fundamentalists globally.

"I wish you would stop your incessant complaining:) "

No you don't. You just wish that I didn't make a case for an alternative view different to your own. -:)

Plerase don't incest me, I'm still a virgin back there.

That's another story. But end of colonialization should have seen a more positive chapter evolving. The problems I mentioned brought the economy to the dogs on more than one occassion and has been a constant burden to better progress. That is a fact that stands on it's own.