A good LBS is much more than a retail operation. They are a hangout, your best friend, your shaman. They are your coach, voice of reason, and sometimes, the little devil on your left shoulder saying "go ahead, buy it anyway". They are your training buddies, your barometer of the local economy. They are the Interbike for those of us who can't go. They are where the local guys get their own 15 minutes of fame. They care about you, not because you buy stuff from them, but because they do. You give your time to them, help them unload shipping containers in exchange for a beer afterwards and a sneak peek at the new toys. You help them move locations. They teach you how to repair an STI lever.

They are there for you. They just happen to sell stuff. That is a good LBS.

A poor LBS is there to sell you stuff. You walk in, buy an inner tube, and then leave unfulfilled.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

That's funny, Tom. After I got offline last night I kept thinking about this whole retail thing. I intended to get on today and say that the only time I can see that you, as a dealer, would be justified in flat-out refusing to sell something to a customer would be if there's a legit safety issue involved.

Now, I have to say that our definition of "legitimate safety issue" is probably not the same. I really don't think that a poor fitting bike is a serious safety issue, except in the mostest extremest cases. I think you are probably a little gun shy since being sued for such a stupid reason, and I can understand that. I think Tibbs is also right that you have a good amount of pride wrapped up in the issue- "noone is going to leave our store on wrong bike!" And that's an admirable attitude to have, and if I lived in or near Michigan, you can believe I would take advantage of it. But it can be taken too far- some customers just won't listen to reason, for whatever reason. Maybe they really DO know what they need/want better than you do, maybe they don't. . .Maybe they just need/want to learn from their mistakes, like most of us do. Either way, in the end, it's their perogative. They shouldn't need their dealers permission to buy or ride a certain bike. It just isn't your role, ya know? ( Again, excepting genuine safety issues )



By the way, congrats on a great race!

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Thanks vitus979!

As usual, you make some excellent and accurate points.

I hesitate to characterize us as "gun shy" as a result of the lawsuit filed against us in 2001 from the test ride crash (car crossed the sidewalk in front of a women on a test ride, she braked suddenly while riding on sidewalk to avoid being hit by car and fell as a result- sustained serious, permanent facial injuries and was disfigured). We are aware of how exposed we are to such lawsuits though.

At the conclusion of the trial, once the verdict was handed down by the jury, our attorney and I had the option to speak with the jurors provided they agreed to do so. Each of the jurors spoke to us. It was a good jury- a reasonable cross section of the common public, truly a jury of our peers (jury selection lasted three days alone). The jury, in candid conversation, told us, "You should have warned her she could get hit by a car even if she was riding on the sidewalk." when we mentioned to the jury that the woman in the accident was a licensed driver and an automotive engineer they said, "But she wasn't an experienced cyclist like you."

The lesson was: Never make assumptions about a person's intelligence. The plaintiff's attorney argued that, even though she was an engineer for one of the big three she did not understand that motor vehicle posed a potential danger to a cyclist riding on the sidewalk.

That is one of the reasons why we are so careful. We can't assume people know how to use the equipment they are purchasing. There is an incumbent responsibilty on our part to warn them and familiarize them with the equipment's safe operation.

Thanks again for the time you put into thinking about this. I spend a lot of time thinking about it also.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I love re-tail who cares if it's been used before ; )

Forgive me, Tom, for trying to speak for you but I'll give it a go. Tom is not in the bicycle business just to make a profit. Sure, he needs to make a profit, but he needs more than that out of the business to justify all he pours into it. Yeah, maybe he'd make a few more bucks selling an ill fitting Felt B2 to an insistent customer, but how would he feel about what he's doing? What satisfaction would he get out of that kind of transaction? I suspect he'd feel worse compromising his beliefs than he would from losing the occasional sale. Life and business ought to be about more than maximizing sales.

<<What satisfaction would he get out of that kind of transaction? I suspect he'd feel worse compromising his beliefs than he would from losing the occasional sale. Life and business ought to be about more than maximizing sales>>

I second that thought. Tom, stick to your mission. Sure, there are ways to improve, but don't compromise your principals. How many people have posted that they drove XX hours and passed XX number of bike shops to see you? That lady who wanted an ill-fitting B2--fugettabout it. How's Sheila T doing on her bike? (Don't forget, she has a b-day comming up next week).

Brett

Well, should Tom's primary concern as a dealer be his satisfaction, or his customer's?

Obviously, Tom takes a great deal of pride in providing the very best level of service, quality, and expertise possible to his customers. I most sincerely commend him for it. He's a rare breed. I am honestly trying to figure out a way to travel through Michigan on my way to NJ this summer so I can go to his store for a fitting. Why? Because I trust his ( and his staff's ) experience. I think it would be valuable for me to seek their input. If I do manage to get there, I will almost certainly take their advice.

Why "almost"? Because when it comes down to it, what I pay for is my responsibility and what I ride is my decision, and I am the person best qualified to decide what's best for me. It's that simple.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I'm sure most of the time there is not a conflict between the goals of customer satisfaction and self-satisfaction, but when push comes to shove and the two are at odds, I say his #1 responsibility is to himself and his principles.

<<Why "almost"? Because when it comes down to it, what I pay for is my responsibility and what I ride is my decision, and I am the person best qualified to decide what's best for me. It's that simple.>>

But there is the rub. I'm going to assume that you are the type of person that if you insisted on buying XXX bike and it didn't work, you wouldn't turn around and blame the retailer. There are folks out there who are not willing to take responsibility for their own decisions. I think these are the people Tom is concerned with. I happen to "click" with personalities like Tom's, so I seek these kind of people out when it comes to spending my hard earned coin. I avoid the "whore" retailers that care more about moving inventory than making sure I'm happy with my purchase one, two, three years later. Toilet paper is toilet paper, but tri-bikes are another thing all together.

Brett

Most assuredly there are. Occupational hazard, I say. I don't think selling them the "right" bike is going to be any guarantee that they won't complain later, though.

How bout it, Tom? You ever get any complaints from unhappy customers who had taken your advice? "You told me this bike was good for me and I haven't gotten any faster and I'm pissed" sort of thing?

And have you met Claudia yet?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

The point that I believe is being missed is that Tom, and every other entrepreneur is in business for himself. That means that if he decides he's not going to sell something to a customer because it doesn't fit, or he doesn't think they will be satisfied with it long term, or because he favorite TV show is on and he damn well won't be bothered while it's on, then that's the way it will be. That's the beauty of being self-employed. That being said, the customer will then vote with his feet and his wallet as to whether Tom's bedside manner works for him.

An entrepreneur provides good customer service because he chooses to and his clients respond in a favorable manner. There is no "should" when you work for yourself.

ok..my apologies as I don't have the time to read the ENTIRE thread ;-). However, your predicament regarding the B2 and that lady is something that is not only a prevalent problem in the retail space, but also in the corporate space. I vow to disagree with those who fall back on the "customer is always right" campaign, as it was a thought that helped build many business...prior to the over taxation of our court system based on customer litigation.

With that said, I have seen SOME places do exactly that which you did, and others who have modified their behavior because, after all, a sale is a sale ;-). I suppose this depends on how much information you can store in your company computer systems (does the customer "file" have room for a "note"?). By allowing a customer to sign a "waiver" (or some may call them customer contracts), you limit the amount of follow up they can do...you limit your "negligence" should they fall because of their poor handling skills on a bike that doesn't fit...etc.

It's a tough challenge having people become (theoretically) more informed about products. Usually, it's just enough to be dangerous. This is a tough business decision on how to: a) grow your business, b) possibly "take" some business from your competition, c) where is the ROI on the time vs. $$$'s scale, d) limit your liability by providing the customer what they "want" (despite it possibly being wrong). I wish you the best of luck in finding this out...

..and if you do...can you please sell your business plan to Supergo in Laguna Hills, CA? I stroll in there once a week to see what they have on sale...and probably see 1-2 people each time test riding TRI bikes WITHOUT helmets on. I suppose it's a bit of a different topic...but they have gone the opposite way about obviously not giving a crap about the customer's health/safety.

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Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

All salesman I have a question. How do you rank the pitches you are thrown at LBS? Beyond being nice and full of information how do the employees do at leading you into the sale?

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I'd have to say that despite being an engineer by schooling, I guess sales & marketing have been my predominant career for the past 13 years ;-).

Generally speaking, I'd love to go on "tour" and teach LBS owners & staff 2 simple questions that could alleviate much of the disdain towards shops (and while I lived in the Chicago area for 33 years, and So.Cal for the past 3.5, I can only gauge shops in these areas).

Question #1: What can I help you find? (as opposed to "Can I help you find something?") This generally will produce SOME type of answer as opposed to "just looking" or "nope"...or "I'll let ya know" ;-)

Question #2: What is your experience with bikes, and do you consider yourself knowledgeable? This will keep salespeople from looking like total dorks when someone like Slowman walks into a Supergo and the guy tries to "sell him" on tri equipment ;-) (I believe I remember an episode of this nature a couple years back?).

I would probably differ from some and say that most "general" bike retailers can often be worse than tri (or other) specific shops. Ah...I remember the days of a 16 year old kid telling me I wanted to move my seat "backwards" so I could be "more stretched out" for triathlons (for the record, since I started doing tri's in '94, despite whatever objections/experiments I have tried, I have found the Slowman methodology of riding between 78-80 degrees quite optimal for me...I guess it was an acquired taste ;-).

Frankly, if you ARE an avid reader of Slowtwitch, or some of the other forums where you can receive direct feedback from Dan, Tom D., John Cobb, Steve Hed, Andrew C., Gerard, etc....you can feel pretty good that your knowledge is probably "above average" and might surpass the knowledge of sales staff in non-specific tri shops. You may not know quite as much as someone in a Nytro, B&L, Mission Bay, Edge, Wheelers, etc. (those are the only tri-shops where I've personally met people), but instead of battling egos, a good salesperson will take what YOU know, add what THEY know, and together you can find a solution.

Which brings us to another sales technique..

There are two types of "sales" methods that I see dominate both the bike industry (and the tech industry where I used to reside). There is commodity selling, where they are just trying to pound out and sell as much as possible as soon as possible...and there is "solution" selling. While there is somewhat of a commodity to selling bikes (although I commend the manufacturers for keeping the online selling to a minimum), I would say that those tri-bike retailers I have visited could use a lesson on solution selling. Tri bikes are a longer sales cycle (not 45-60 minutes like someone buying a cruiser possibly..but onwards of a couple of hours these days). What I consider GOOD (which doesn't mean SQUAT!) retailers will spend most of their time LISTENING as opposed to TALKING. Asking the questions to try and narrow down the criteria someone may have. Done right, it may help some dealers reduce the amount of time they spend with customers...

..although that also depends on how many customers are in the store at the time ;-) (when you have 3 sales staff in a Mission Bay on a Saturday afternoon in late spring...you might not be able to handle 10-15 customers at a time - all day long ;-)

If we're grading...I give general bike shops a D for sales technique. I give tri shops (those I've visited probably a B, with a few possible A's to individual sales staff who ask the right questions and LISTEN..

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Craig Preston - President / Preston Presentations
Saving the world with more professional, powerful, and persuasive presentations - one audience at a time.

You are one sexy man.

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customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.