I used to work as a public school teacher. At no point was the option to tase, kick in the face, hit with a baton, pepper spray, or shoot available to us. We also didn't have any special training to break up fights.

I get it that there's a big difference if the person is armed, or really big and aggressive, or actively endangering another person. I get it if they are inside of a vehicle and it's a complete mystery as to what could be inside the vehicle.

And maybe I don't have the full knowledge of what Tyre Nichols was up to (or if you guys are talking about someone else now....sorry, Eagles game on in 2 minutes, so I skimmed). But given the information I have, 143 lb Tyre got beaten to death because they could beat him to death.

I get it. I've been in a situation where some asshole kid won't listen to you, won't comply, keeps squirming, etc. And there have been some kids who I've wanted to smack around and quite honestly possibly would have if it was socially acceptable to do so.

And that's where I think the line is on this. They didn't do it because they lacked the training to subdue him otherwise. They did it because they could. A lot of us here might have done the same in that situation (though not as badly, I would hope). The fix, IMO, has to be done at an administrative level with would cops are and are not allowed to do given the circumstances. A kick to the face should not be an acceptable procedure for someone who is slow to comply, or unwilling to comply.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I wasn't suggesting a 4 year degree. But a year of grappling training doesnt seem to be significantly different from an expectation that paramedics pay for their own basic training

I know you weren't, but Thisisit was.

A year of grappling training would only cover one aspect of the skills a police officer might need to do their job. Not all cops are likely to ever grapple with a citizen. And there are other skills and information that might be as or more important. Maybe not just how to grapple, but when grappling is appropriate, what their actual scope of authority is, the laws they will be enforcing, some basic human interaction skills, etc. All stuff the police academies should be teaching already.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Perhaps instead of looking at this from the perspective of the LEAST amount of education necessary so police meet the bare MINIMUM standard, we should shift our perspective to think that a four-year degree won’t harm law enforcement and will likely attract better quality candidates. After all, they hold unique powers in our society that directly impact legal rights and health and safety.

We invest time and money in things that matter and we leave margins so that we KNOW we can meet our responsibilities. If we truly value law and order enforced by law-abiding officers, we need to be a little bit generous with education and oversight. If humanities classes help develop the WHOLE person, why would we take a narrow view for educating police officers?

Work with me here. Maybe we could figure out all the stuff cops have to know and open up a special school that would focuses on those things and teaches each and every class they need. We could call it a an academy.

I'm with you pretty much. But mainly because we don't train them enough on the front end at police academy. In Columbus the police academy is 31 weeks. You need 1500 hours of training to apply for a cosmetology license .

What if we made the police academy more like 2 years?

I like the idea of a 4 year degree because you learn more than just your major area of study and a more well rounded person will make a better cop. But we definitely need to train cops for longer than we train hair stylists so I'll take 3x the current length of training at the police academy.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

I'm open to other options. It's crazy that you can be a cop with all the inherent responsibilities with less training, often considerably less, than a nurse.

“I used to work as a public school teacher. At no point was the option to tase, kick in the face, hit with a baton, pepper spray, or shoot available to us. We also didn't have any special training to break up fights. ”

If I had had that power there are some parents I would have tased.

I'm all for more and better constructed training and education requirements to be a police officer. But we need to inject some realism into that discussion as well. A 4 year degree is probably not required. And a 4 year degree is expensive. We can wax poetic about how nice it would be to have well rounded individuals hired to be cops, who have gone above and beyond just what's necessary, but the truth is, we have a nationwide shortage of police officers. Requiring a 4 year degree, especially at the individual's expense, is going to decrease the pool of potential candidates significantly. We definitely want to weed out the people who really shouldn't be cops, but we also need to attract people who would be good in what is, by all accounts, a difficult, risky, and demanding job that's enjoying less and less public confidence and approval.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I agree with all that. I'm not sure what the duration of training is there. Here they have started an apprenticeship program for police officer's. I think basic training is 20-30 weeks, but covers a multitude of subjects.

I don’t think we need ur best and brightest to be cops. We need them to be surgeons and leaders and scientists, etc. There are only so many “best and brightest” to go around.

I agree there’s a cycle that needs to be broken. I think there is a balancing act with what education and training you demand up front such that it doesn’t end up prohibiting plenty of suitable candidates from becoming police officers.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I agree with you. They have police academy for specialized training. I don't see where requiring a bacehlors really accomplishes anything.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

so blm would love to live in communist russia....

Russia isn't communist. You'd have to go back to the Soviet Union for that.

Maybe part of the problem is we consider being a cop more akin to being a plumber than to being an accountant, nurse, etc.

And I say that as someone who thinks most jobs can largely be learned with specific training and hands on.

Who is saying that? The fact that there is a police academy that is different from a university program does not mean that they are "like plumbers." It means that they have a special school to give them a special kind of education and training that does not need to coincide with the requirements of a college degree.


Maybe that training needs to be harder, or different than it currently is. But the fact that it is not a college program doesn't mean that their training is "like plumber school."

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

It means they're going to effectively a trade school.

Maybe, well almost certainly, we'd get a different type and differently prepared cop if they got a liberal education along with their specific training.

Now that I think of it, I'm pretty sure there are people who get 4 year criminal justice degrees and become cops, 2 year associate degrees from community colleges as well. Someone could look at, if they haven't already, the relationship between the amount of education and these problems we are trying to avoid.

If by "trade school" you mean they have a school that is designed specifically for the needs of the job, which is nothing like being a plumber or an electrician, then sure.

While writing a paper on The Iliad, discussing the fall of the Roman Empire, and solving calculus equations might broaden ones horizons, I don't really see those as requirements for running traffic stops.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

We're not treating them like plumbers. We're giving them less than plumbers get, because we don't really force cops to apprentice before being licensed to do their jobs. And nurses essentially get a trade education too.

Nobody is arguing to prevent people from going to a 2 or 4 year college, and then applying to become cops. That's great, if you can afford it. The question is whether it needs to be a requirement. Even if it yields better officers, that doesn't mean that it should become the requirement, because there are other costs and benefits or downsides to consider.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I would like to think about a blurring of the lines between a college education and trade schools. I think a well rounded person should know the basics of the trades, as well as sciences and humanities. I would like people to be able to more easily move between courses of study and types of careers.

When I consider the cumulative stress that law enforcement officers endure throughout a career, I think a strong foundation in the humanities would provide broader career opportunities. Let’s create off ramps and on ramps so that people can enjoy different careers throughout their 50 years of work life.

Plus greater diversity in education and training in various areas of society provides fresh ideas to solve old problems.

BREAKING NEWS

The Memphis police confirmed that a sixth officer had been placed on administrative leave in connection with the death of Tyre Nichols.

Monday, January 30, 2023 11:52 AM ET
It was not immediately clear what role the officer, Preston Hemphill, had played in the incident.

MEMPHIS — The Memphis Police Department confirmed on Monday that a sixth officer had been taken off duty in connection with the death of Tyre Nichols.

Five officers were fired by the department earlier this month, soon after being placed on leave, and charged last week with second-degree murder in connection with Mr. Nichols’s death. The sixth officer, Preston Hemphill, has been placed on administrative leave; it is not clear exactly what role he played in the encounter.

A spokesman for the department confirmed on Monday that Mr. Hemphill was placed on leave on the same day that the other officers were suspended.

“He was never present at the second scene,” where officers caught up with Mr. Nichols after a brief foot chase and beat him severely, Mr. Gerald said of Officer Hemphill. He added that his client “is cooperating with officials in this investigation.”

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

This just gets crazier and crazier by the minute ... Since she is now the new queen of crazy, l can't wait for Sarah Sanders to weigh in.

https://apnews.com/...db7b12f984f0bc96965f?

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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I'm sticking with my 4 year college degree plan. We need to hold cops to higher standard than just any old idiot who can get through the 6 months of the police academy.