Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [j p o] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
j p o wrote:
BLeP wrote:
The Hall of Pretty good


Maybe even The Hall of Very Good. But if I'm voting I'd pick players who are more dominant.

He was top 5 in MVP voting once. Never higher than 14th besides that. Only 2 seasons of more than 6 WAR.

He is #103 all-time in WAR, and there are 341 people in the HOF (not all of them would be eligible for the WAR stat, but still). Among others, Rolen is ahead of:

Manny
Gwynn
Smoltz
Murray
Fisk
Palmer
Al Simmons
Sandberg
Banks
McCovey
Halladay
Winfield
Marichal
McGwire

And tons of other big names.
Quote Reply
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The GMAN wrote:
ike wrote:
Rolen was a close call, and the voting reflected that. But, can you name a better 3B who isn’t in the Hall?


Beltre but he’s not eligible until next year. A-Rod of course unless we want to quibble on the SS to 3B switch.

I’m not saying Rolen wasn’t one of the better 3B of the last 30 years but I don’t think there’s a quota for a position. His stats are not HoF worthy.

I agree there should not be a quota by position, but it's appropriate to compare people to others at their position to get some sense of where they stand. That's especially true for a great fielder like Rolen. Comparing his hitting stats to, say, a 1B or a DH would far understate what he accomplished.

Per my post above, the WAR stat says he is HOF-worthy, or at least he's close enough that it's not some travesty that he got in. He's only 1 WAR -- for an entire career -- below Jeter.

Beltre and A-Rod are not examples of voters turning down -- on the playing merits -- someone who was better than Rolen. Beltre is not eligible and A-Rod lost for reasons unrelated to his on-the-field stats.
Quote Reply
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [ike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
ike wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
ike wrote:
Rolen was a close call, and the voting reflected that. But, can you name a better 3B who isn’t in the Hall?


Beltre but he’s not eligible until next year. A-Rod of course unless we want to quibble on the SS to 3B switch.

I’m not saying Rolen wasn’t one of the better 3B of the last 30 years but I don’t think there’s a quota for a position. His stats are not HoF worthy.


I agree there should not be a quota by position, but it's appropriate to compare people to others at their position to get some sense of where they stand. That's especially true for a great fielder like Rolen. Comparing his hitting stats to, say, a 1B or a DH would far understate what he accomplished.

Per my post above, the WAR stat says he is HOF-worthy, or at least he's close enough that it's not some travesty that he got in. He's only 1 WAR -- for an entire career -- below Jeter.

Beltre and A-Rod are not examples of voters turning down -- on the playing merits -- someone who was better than Rolen. Beltre is not eligible and A-Rod lost for reasons unrelated to his on-the-field stats.


Rolen is also apparently #10 in "JAWS" which is an averaged out WAR-type stat (career WAR averaged with 7 peak years WAR numbers), and is slightly above the average JAWS numbers for the 15 3rd basemen currently in the HoF.

I wouldn't say he isn't worthy from a stats perspective; I just can't remember a player being voted in whose name I honestly couldn't remember ever hearing before. It isn't like Rolen is a player from a bygone era. His entire career started and finished after I graduated college.

I don't think this is an issue of whether they let mediocre or even very good players into the HoF. It's a matter of whether they have shifted from viewing "great" as a measure of traditional stats like RBI,s HRs, etc or if they are viewing it from the lens of more modern sabermetric type stats.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Last edited by: slowguy: Jan 25, 23 8:55
Quote Reply
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Rolen was the best all-around third baseman during his time playing. There is more to a ball player than the stats you listed. His fielding credentials at a premium position and his WAR statistics are definitely hall of fame worthy. He is usually on most people's lists of the top 10 third basemen of all time. Sounds like a hall of famer to me.
Quote Reply
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The sabermetric/geek stats will need to be viewed more and more over the traditional BA/HR/RBI or W/SO/ERA type stats. I get it. Otherwise, not a lot of new players will get in. I just look at Rolen's stat line and think, "Really???" Then again, Ozzie Smith wasn't an offense wunderkind and got in on defensive merits.

The game has changed immensely over time and especially over the last 30 years. Look at pitchers. The starting pitcher use and strategy is so different now that it's likely that there will never be another 300 game winner in baseball. Ever. Randy Johnson might have been the last. Starting pitchers just don't get enough use and innings per game to get wins. Verlander has the most among active players at 244. As good as Verlander is... 56 more wins at 40 years old isn't likely to happen. Greinke (38) and Sherzer (37) are next up at 223 and 201. They have no chance at 300. Neither does Kershaw.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Last edited by: The GMAN: Jan 25, 23 9:40
Quote Reply
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I felt somewhat the same way when Craig Biggio got in. I am enough of a baseball fan that I had heard of him, but never thought of him as an HOF-type. When someone is steady for a long career they can rack up some good stats and yet not get tons of publicity. Same for Rolen, whose playoff appearances were limited (and not great, to be fair).

Rolen is sort of the flip side of Nettles, as a 3B. In my 20s, every fan knew who Nettles was. His Yankee teams had some good years, and he played in a huge media market. Yet, his stats say he was worse than Rolen.

You’re surely right that modern voters are using metrics that are quite different than those of earlier decades. Personally, I think that is a good thing. But, it does mean voting in some people who might be under the radar on traditional stats like HR/RBI/BA.

A classic example is fielding which, in the past, focused on fielding percentage, thus ignoring whether someone had good range. Better metrics can give a much more complete picture.
Quote Reply
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [ike] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
You’re surely right that modern voters are using metrics that are quite different than those of earlier decades. Personally, I think that is a good thing.

Sure. As GMAN mentioned, it's not just the voters who are thinking this way. It's how teams are thinking about players and managing rosters as well. So as teams adjust how they build rosters and manage games, evaluation of careers has to change as well.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
Quote Reply
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [mck414] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
mck414 wrote:
I don't know who first coined the phrase but it seems fitting this year. It's now the Baseball Hall of Pretty Good.

"Fame" implies "Famous," pretty good or not

So maybe "Hall of 'I Had To Look Him Up'"

#My2Cents

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
Quote Reply
Re: So they’re letting guys with career stat lines like a .280 BA, 300 HR, 2000 hits, and 1200 RBIs into the HoF [RandMart] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RandMart wrote:
mck414 wrote:
I don't know who first coined the phrase but it seems fitting this year. It's now the Baseball Hall of Pretty Good.

"Fame" implies "Famous," pretty good or not

So maybe "Hall of 'I Had To Look Him Up'"

#My2Cents

Then there’s Tinkers/Evers/Chance who are well known to fans (at least those of a certain age) because of some poem. Some of them had no business getting into the HOF. Or the absurdity of a popular Yankee like Phil Rizzuto into the HOF.
Quote Reply

Prev Next