It would have been an absolute shit show of outrage if the trade had been made for Whelan and not Griner. And the outrage would have been from those in Biden's tribe. I can't imagine that didn't come into play.

I'd also guess if that would have been the trade that was made a whole lot less people who are bitching now would have cared that we swapped the arms dealer for him. A lot of this is just political hay making/tribalism, whatever you want to call it.

If Trump had made the trade, there would be just about no bitching about it.

If Trump had made the trade, there would be just about no bitching about it.

No need to run off, you did a great job of expressing your opinion on the matter. You know how it gets here sometimes, you post a pick of your bike in your garage, and it becomes all about the tiny hole in the wall way up in the corner... (-;

And of course different folks are treated with a different tone, such is life, right? But I wouldn't compare the two cases so closely as you did, just have a read of Paul Whelan's bio, and the circumstances of his arrest, and you can see that are not exactly alike. He seems to be a career criminal, and no doubt just got caught in Russia being him. Of course blown up to something else by the Russians, but still a career criminal that probably just got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.


Brittney on the other hand was just a decorated athlete playing in the Russian league, and got put away for what amounts to a hangnail. No history of anything she was accused of, and most certainly a grab because of her double olympic gold medal status. Not that the Russian hopeful outcome was not to just exchange the both of them in their initial grabs, just that one of them was truly an innocent, past and present...

No need to run off, you did a great job of expressing your opinion on the matter. You know how it gets here sometimes, you post a pick of your bike in your garage, and it becomes all about the tiny hole in the wall way up in the corner... (-;

And of course different folks are treated with a different tone, such is life, right? But I wouldn't compare the two cases so closely as you did, just have a read of Paul Whelan's bio, and the circumstances of his arrest, and you can see that are not exactly alike. He seems to be a career criminal, and no doubt just got caught in Russia being him. Of course blown up to something else by the Russians, but still a career criminal that probably just got caught with his hand in the cookie jar.


Brittney on the other hand was just a decorated athlete playing in the Russian league, and got put away for what amounts to a hangnail. No history of anything she was accused of, and most certainly a grab because of her double olympic gold medal status. Not that the Russian hopeful outcome was not to just exchange the both of them in their initial grabs, just that one of them was truly an innocent, past and present...

He's not comparing Griner and Whelan. He's comparing Griner and Marc Fogel, a teacher who was caught with a bunch of vape cartridges at the airport (somewhat like Griner), and who has been held about 11 months (somewhat like Griner). Worth noting that Fogel brought in 17 grams of marijuana in almost 2 dozen cartridges apparently because he thought he could get away with it, whereas Griner brought in 0.7 grams in 2 cartridges apparently unintentionally.

Yeeper's contention is that the government hasn't provided the same level of public support for Fogel as they have for Griner, and that the DoS hasn't appropriately designated his detention as wrongful, and that these failures are due to Griner's fame and Fogel's lack thereof.

I think what people have been trying to convey is that there is more than just fame to differentiate between the two cases, and that we don't have much access to what the government has or has not actually been doing with regard to Fogel's case. Additionally, on a case by case basis, DoS has to determine whether or not loud public statements would actually help or hurt the cause.

I don't think there's evidence to suggest that any different public statements regarding Fogel, at this point, would have resulted in some dramatic difference in his current status.

Discussion of Fogel gets very little traction anywhere. It's curious.

While it would certainly be the desired outcome, sometimes the public statements do more than just enact dramatic change. Sometimes the effort alone demonstrates an acknowledgment and an allegiance. Christ, our government makes public statements all the time for no other reason than to show a nod of acknowledgement or because they know it’s the right thing to do after a travesty. It doesn’t require much effort.

And it’s worth noting that the legal teams showed there was not much difference between Griner’s and Fogel’s cases other than the amount. And that he had medical papers for his marijuana. He also said that he wasn’t aware medical use wasn’t illegal. So it’s not like he was trying to intentionally smuggle it in.

Griner claims she didn’t know it was in her suitcase. Fogel claims he didn’t know medical use wasn’t allowed. So we’ll give her a pass but not him?

Besides, his sentence was for 14 years: more severe than drug traffickers and murderers. It has already been established that it was excessive and he met multiple criteria.

If there are legal teams and senators saying how similar the cases are and calling for the state dept to classify him accordingly then I’m not sure why it’s so outrageous that one random dude on the internet also views it through the same lens.

It is curious. So I’m left with two options while I casually think it over my Friday glass of bourbon:

It’s politics or he is an undercover foreign operative. I can easily see the first, as evidenced by my thoughts in this thread and I have no idea what the latter would look like from a PR standpoint.

Biden is a genius. He sent Bout back without his drawings and documents. Biden will now trade Bout's art work for Paul Whelan. Genius move.

https://news.yahoo.com/...wants-082918660.html

BBC News - US charges seven with military technology plot on Russian orders
https://www.bbc.co.uk/...d-us-canada-63964892

Whelan will be free soon

Why is everyone hung up on Whelan?

Why is everyone hung up on Whelan?

Hope they don't forget Marc Fogel https://www.politico.com/...tney-griner-00073363

My guess, because the media frequently states he was a US Marine, without also mentioning he was fucking court martialed and received a bad conduct discharge. Also not mentioned, he holds citizenship in four countries (US being just one of them).

The people I have talked to directly who were frothing at the mouth over Brittney Griner's release, only latched onto the he was US Marine part of the story. The dude is a first class shit bird who should not be mentioned in the same breath of those who did serve honorably and faithfully.

Also of note, many of those hung up on Whelan believe Griner's "crime" of not standing for the national anthem is somehow a greater offense than that what Whelan has done.

Amen brother.

In Griner's case, there wasn't much choice. She's a celebrity, and the Russians knew her case would get a lot of attention,

He was absolutely trying to smuggle it in. His son has said as much. He wasn't intending to smuggle it for the purposes of starting an international drug ring, but it wasn't accidental. His son stated "he thought he could get away with it." Just because his lawyers claim it was similar to Griner's case doesn't make it so.



No one is arguing that his case was treated reasonably by the Russians. Just that it may not be exactly analogous to Griner's case.


I'm not saying your opinion is particularly outrageous. I just think it's based on not a whole lot of information. And I think you seem to be overestimating how big a difference the actions you wish had been taken might actually make in Fogel's status.

Fogel mistake was ignorance to the lack of medical exemption

Sorry I didn't even see this reply to me. I was cleaning email notifications and saw it.

Regarding the bold, thats my point. That should matter at the govt level. My personal feelings, and YMMV, is that free market and private company, all bets are off. But at the level of a US citizen, celeb status should not matter one iota. Her case shouldn't get more attention or action simply because she is a celebrity. This was exactly my point. Utopian or not.

Regarding Fogel and the case not being analogous, he was given more time than usual for equal or worse crimes and that should be enough to warrant a WD status. Again, this is not just be arbitrarily saying this, this is his legal team and our own members of congress.

I haven't found anything on his son claiming his dad's actions. Regardless, its pretty obvious he brought them intentionally as he said he thought that was allowed given medical necessity and proper paperwork (obviously not proper for Russia). So Griners mistake was ignorance to knowing she had it. Fogel mistake was ignorance to the lack of medical exemption. It seems like both made a mistake, or both claimed to make a mistake. I don't think thats illogical. In one case, she was careless in her packing. In the other, he was careless in his planning. I don't see why we should give one a pass, or believe one over the other's intentions as honest or trying to subvert the law.

I think I have presented a significant amount of information. I still believe both should have been far, far more careful in their travels as both have been in country enough to know their laws. Griner has been playing in Russia for almost 10 years. Fogel teaching there for almost 10 years. Both should know better, and I firmly believe the responsibility is theirs alone. However, IF we are going to start excusing some situations, it should be with similar efforts for similar intents...and I personally believe their cases are far more similar than they are different.

Again, my interpretation.

Her ignorance of the law is inconceivable given her position and statue as a professional athlete.